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Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:12 pmby Insane_Pony_Posse
Stlhockeyguy02 ....
I realize you and I rarely agree on much and as previously stated I am very happy June is gone, so I really don't want to be placed in a position as if I am defending June.
But do you think it is logical or fair for basically everybody to assume we would have fared far better under any other coach Orsini would have hired if he had not hired June? After-all look at our bowl appearances for the 20 years preceeding June's arrival. Who knows what would have happened had we hired Todd Dodge instead? or Turner Gill? or whoever....
I am not saying June was any kind of world-beater, I know June was a lazy recruiter and left the shelves bare....but why or how can we assume basically anybody else following Bennett would have done far better than "4 bowls in 6 seasons"?....after-all this is SMU.
Maybe somebody else would have done better or maybe they would not have even as done as well as June?.....lots of coaches get fired....so I guess what I am saying is all the folks now beating their chests proclaiming that "June should have never been hired"....in my mind it is no sure thing that somebody else would have done so much better.....maybe yes....maybe no.....the key word being "maybe".
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:29 pmby LA_Mustang
Insane_Pony_Posse wrote:Stlhockeyguy02 ....I realize you and I rarely agree on much and as previously stated I am very happy June is gone, so I really don't want to be placed in a position as if I am defending June.
But do you think it is logical or fair for basically everybody to assume we would have fared far better under any other coach Orsini would have hired if he had not hired June? After-all look at our bowl appearances for the 20 years preceeding June's arrival. Who knows what would have happened had we hired Todd Dodge instead? or Turner Gill? or whoever....
I am not saying June was any kind of world-beater, I know June was a lazy recruiter and left the shelves bare....but why or how can we assume basically anybody else following Bennett would have done far better than "4 bowls in 6 seasons"?....after-all this is SMU.
Maybe somebody else would have done better or maybe they would not have even as done as well as June?.....lots of coaches get fired....so I guess what I am saying is all the folks now beating their chests proclaiming that "June should have never been hired"....in my mind it is no sure thing that somebody else would have done so much better.....maybe yes....maybe no.....the key word being "maybe".
See, this is THE problem. Insane Pony, one of JJ's biggest defenders and excuse makers, is still defending him. It's pathetic. You're calling out people who say he should've never been hired but what about the people like you who defended him for the past three years while he slowly destroyed the program? There's a 95% chance SMU will never make it into the P5 and a big reason is JJ's last three years. This program is at a minimum two more years from even being competitive. So, next time you see your boy, tell him thanks. And thank you to your "Team Defenders" who allowed him to skate by and deceive some on the CofC into letting him stick around. I hope your proud.
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:02 pmby PonyKai
No, no, no. I'm not saying someone else could, or would have done better. I'm simply saying that, in hindsight, it appears that SMU did not conduct proper due diligence when it hired Jones in 2008. I would argue the lion's share of that blame falls at Orsini's feet, as he ran the athletic department and presided over a 72 day search.
The reasoning behind the opinion is that it's become very evident that June did not have, and did not adopt, and had no interest in following the proper formula to build a consistent winner at a private, mid-major football school in Dallas, Texas. It's also become evident that June's personality, philosophy, and loyalty to those close to him were/are a dreadful fit for this institution. Simple questions from Orsini about his recruiting philosophy, the construction of his staff, the tangible facilities he would/would not need, his willingness to adapt his offensive philosophy, and plan to engage the collective SMU family and Dallas to begin to create some support would have provided a much fuller picture as to the employee you're set to hire. That's essential for an organization, especially one that's about to hand over $10,000,000 to its most high-profile employee.
Again, this is hindsight on our part. But it is the responsibility of the AD (and those footing the bill) to ask the right questions, get the right answers, and make sure all parties are on the same page. For example, when Hart forced June to accept a paper extension, he wound up being June's "accountabilabuddy" for recruiting and HS outreach because it was painfully evident that June's regime had been wandering around like a chicken with its head cut off for the last six years. Another example is that June brought in absolutely no one with any Texas experience when he took this job. The first guy he hired was Jason Phillips. That's insane.
I've cherry-picked two examples to support my argument, but I think it holds water. We were all rightfully excited about June, but that excitement was surface deep. SMU didn't do enough due diligence at the front end (or June flat-out lied to them), and SMU didn't cut ties after ASU. Now we deal with the flaming wreckage.
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:03 pmby Insane_Pony_Posse
LA_Mustang wrote:See, this is THE problem. Insane Pony, one of JJ's biggest defenders and excuse makers, is still defending him. It's pathetic. You're calling out people who say he should've never been hired but what about the people like you who defended him for the past three years while he slowly destroyed the program? There's a 95% chance SMU will never make it into the P5 and a big reason is JJ's last three years. This program is at a minimum two more years from even being competitive. So, next time you see your boy, tell him thanks. And thank you to your "Team Defenders" who allowed him to skate by and deceive some on the CofC into letting him stick around. I hope your proud.
LA MUSTANG starts lying to make the dots connect!
Demonize anyone that is not a "From Day One June Hater"!
The Tea Party are all racists! Ha Ha...Demonize the enemy!
I am not defending June....I am thrilled June is gone....his time had passed.
I am questioning "hypotheticals argued as sure things".
I am saying you live in a world of "if's".
You beat your chest as if a hypothetical is a sure thing.
Who exactly would you have been able to hire that would have been to 6 of 6 bowls?
4 Bowls in 6 years is better than 20 years of zero bowls.
4 bowls in 6 years is a factual reality
your "maybe" "hypothetical" is exactly that....a maybe...not factual reality.
I hope the next coach takes us to bowls 6 out 6 years...but I doubt he does.
And you can tell "your boy" hypothetical...whoever that is "thanks" for what he
"may have done" as far as more and better bowls in 6 years.
maybe maybe maybe blah blah blah
Most coaching gigs end poorly...most coaches last 4-7 years
and I am sure if the next guy is not winning at least 7 games every year
there will be those beating their chests again from their recliner saying "I told ya so".
Hopefully we can hit a home run with a Patterson type...but that is quite rare.
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:06 pmby gord
LA_Mustang wrote:Insane_Pony_Posse wrote:Stlhockeyguy02 ....I realize you and I rarely agree on much and as previously stated I am very happy June is gone, so I really don't want to be placed in a position as if I am defending June.
But do you think it is logical or fair for basically everybody to assume we would have fared far better under any other coach Orsini would have hired if he had not hired June? After-all look at our bowl appearances for the 20 years preceeding June's arrival. Who knows what would have happened had we hired Todd Dodge instead? or Turner Gill? or whoever....
I am not saying June was any kind of world-beater, I know June was a lazy recruiter and left the shelves bare....but why or how can we assume basically anybody else following Bennett would have done far better than "4 bowls in 6 seasons"?....after-all this is SMU.
Maybe somebody else would have done better or maybe they would not have even as done as well as June?.....lots of coaches get fired....so I guess what I am saying is all the folks now beating their chests proclaiming that "June should have never been hired"....in my mind it is no sure thing that somebody else would have done so much better.....maybe yes....maybe no.....the key word being "maybe".
See, this is THE problem. Insane Pony, one of JJ's biggest defenders and excuse makers, is still defending him. It's pathetic. You're calling out people who say he should've never been hired but what about the people like you who defended him for the past three years while he slowly destroyed the program? There's a 95% chance SMU will never make it into the P5 and a big reason is JJ's last three years. This program is at a minimum two more years from even being competitive. So, next time you see your boy, tell him thanks. And thank you to your "Team Defenders" who allowed him to skate by and deceive some on the CofC into letting him stick around. I hope your proud.
Insane_Pony_Posse: See what you get for getting past kneejerk reactions and the usual messageboard crap, and actually suggest rational thinking for the sake of discussion? I guess I'm the idiot for expecting more from Internet mouthbreathers, but maybe I hold out hope that some day people will 'think' with their fingers instead of passionate rabblerousing.
For the record, I cringed a lot when I read that article and the one on SI.com.
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:19 pmby Insane_Pony_Posse
Stlhockeyguy02 wrote:No, no, no. I'm not saying someone else could, or would have done better. I'm simply saying that, in hindsight, it appears that SMU did not conduct proper due diligence when it hired Jones in 2008. Again, this is hindsight on our part. But it is the responsibility of the AD (and those footing the bill) to ask the right questions, get the right answers, and make sure all parties are on the same page. I've cherry-picked two examples to support my argument, but I think it holds water. We were all rightfully excited about June, but that excitement was surface deep. SMU didn't do enough due diligence at the front end (or June flat-out lied to them), and SMU didn't cut ties after ASU. Now we deal with the flaming wreckage.
Ok Stlhockeyguy02..I agree with most of what you are saying. And yes June never really embraced Dallas or SMU, nor would he adapt. I am not really sure if that could have been fully exposed in an interview....but I hear what you are saying.
I know I am in the minority....but I can't honestly say for sure whether I feel June's hiring was a total mistake.....because who knows if someone else would have been worse or continued no bowls like Rossley, Cavan, and Bennett? We really just do not know that answer...do we?
For all of June's faults...I still enjoyed the bowl games and at least having something to cheer about after such a long drought.
I do agree it was time for June to go. June had checked out and his recruiting and staff hires were horrible. I guess it boils down to I was so beat down after 20 years of misery that yeah I kind of liked a taste of winning some games and being in bowls. Could we have done better? Sure. Could we have done worse? Sure.
I guess we'll see after 6 years how many bowls the new guy has taken us to....and I certainly hope it is 5 or even 6.
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:28 pmby StallionsModelT
June Jones left SMU with its worst team since the Death Penalty by a freaking mile. If that doesn't tell you that the man literally quit on this school then I don't know what will.
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:43 pmby Stallion
people act like 7-8 wins is extraordinary-as I've shown just about everybody on our schedule, in our conference or similar programs has surpassed 8 wins (many multiple times) during June Jones' tenure at SMU. Not really that big a deal
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:56 pmby SoCal_Pony
LA_Mustang wrote:It makes me angry that people here defended him until the end even though he was slowly wrecking the program over a three year period, and it wasn't very hard to see it happening. I hope they feel good about talking down to those who rightfully called out JJ. It turns out that the JJ excuse makers were a big part of the problem.
So I guess I can count you as a No on the statue fund.
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:01 pmby smumustang1980
Insane_Pony_Posse wrote:Stlhockeyguy02 ....
I realize you and I rarely agree on much and as previously stated I am very happy June is gone, so I really don't want to be placed in a position as if I am defending June.
But do you think it is logical or fair for basically everybody to assume we would have fared far better under any other coach Orsini would have hired if he had not hired June? After-all look at our bowl appearances for the 20 years preceeding June's arrival. Who knows what would have happened had we hired Todd Dodge instead? or Turner Gill? or whoever....
I am not saying June was any kind of world-beater, I know June was a lazy recruiter and left the shelves bare....but why or how can we assume basically anybody else following Bennett would have done far better than "4 bowls in 6 seasons"?....after-all this is SMU.
Maybe somebody else would have done better or maybe they would not have even as done as well as June?.....lots of coaches get fired....so I guess what I am saying is all the folks now beating their chests proclaiming that "June should have never been hired"....in my mind it is no sure thing that somebody else would have done so much better.....maybe yes....maybe no.....the key word being "maybe".
No, the issue isn't whether or not hiring Jones was correct, rather the argument is that SMU should have realized the ASU debacle for what it was: a defining watershed in the program.
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:05 pmby gord
Who's to say the decision makers didn't do their due diligence? Sometimes things happen that are unforeseeable. How could someone possibly see that after four years, he would be offered a job by another school, have it rescinded, then essentially give up on the program? There was nothing in his history that would suggest something like that would happen. The problem is the cord wasn't cut soon enough after the ASU incident to keep the program spiraling out of control.
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:17 pmby Insane_Pony_Posse
Stallion wrote:people act like 7-8 wins is extraordinary-as I've shown just about everybody on our schedule, in our conference or similar programs has surpassed 8 wins (many multiple times) during June Jones' tenure at SMU. Not really that big a deal
"extraordinary" considering our last 25 years!
but ok...not a big deal.
i hope you are right and many times you are...
so Stallion how long do you predict it will take the new guy to start winning 7-8 games a year on a regular basis?
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:14 pmby ponypridecirca1989
I was happy to see JJ's arrival. But I always wished he looked like he was a bit more openly enthusiastic about the job.
Once it was clear he wanted to leave I thought the school should have cut ties immediately. I don't doubt he may have had some legit issues with the school, but few coaches get carte blanche, certainly he was being well compensated.
I am not surprised at all that he would further throw SMU under the bus, although bailing as he did, and with the team in such a poor state, should be insult enough.
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:01 pmby SMU89
gord wrote:Who's to say the decision makers didn't do their due diligence? Sometimes things happen that are unforeseeable. How could someone possibly see that after four years, he would be offered a job by another school, have it rescinded, then essentially give up on the program? There was nothing in his history that would suggest something like that would happen. The problem is the cord wasn't cut soon enough after the ASU incident to keep the program spiraling out of control.
We bought the projector
Re: Jones already "recharged"?
Posted:
Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:01 pmby Rebel10
The problem was not the hiring. The problem was not firing him after the ASU fiasco. Would you agree with that IPP?