Thrive on or reasonably close to the Hilltop

[Cheesesteak]

Back when SMU announced plans to build Ford Stadium on campus, I became convinced mustang football could thrive again if the right coaching staff executing a sensible strategy was added. Of course, admissions standards needed to be (and were) addressed.

Ford Stadium: (football games on-campus in a first class facility) Fans and potential recruits experience SMU, not a historic but rented facility miles from the hilltop.

Football recruiting (staying within 300 miles of Dallas): Keep going after students from Texas and its border states. Talent is abundant in Georgia and Florida (some Cavan era recruits), but recruiting is sales and sales are generally most successful when strong and enduring relationships are established. Unless unique factors exist (alumni's son, etc.), telling the SMU story to kids in SMU's region is most likely to generate a high volume of positive results. SMU's latest recruiting class showed improvement but wasn't remarkable. I believe that SMU's current coaching staff will corral a legitimate top 25-35 recruiting class within four years.

Tailgating/game day atmosphere: friends who attended home games since September 2000 noted that The Boulevard is fun and gets better each year. Winning or highly competitive SMU teams plus smart non-conference opponent (Texas Tech, Oklahoma State) selection are critical for filling the Ford Stadium. The hilltop's enjoyable pre and post game (on-campus) atmosphere wins friends too. Guests linger.

Camps: Kids (future recuits and fans) who attend football camp at SMU are likely to come from communities within convenient driving distance of the hilltop. SMU's campus will leave lasting positive memories.

Future conference affiliation and conference mates: I believe that SMU should strive for geographical integrity. That doesn't say hug UNT or Arkansas State, it means that I absolutely prefer western CUSA schools and eastern WAC schools over any other even slightly realistic scenarios. It is my hope that when the conference restructuring dust settles, 85% of SMU's conference/non-conference football opponents campuses are located within 300-400 miles of the hilltop.

Thrive on or reasonably close to the hilltop!

[Charleston Pony]

I agree with most of what you say, but what exactly does your future conference look like?

As long as we are pretending we will have a say in what hapens, I assume you start with SMU, TCU, Rice & Houston and that you like La Tech & Tulsa. Probably want to add Memphis & So. Miss to that mix, but that's only 8 teams. Do you stop there, or do you get to 9 for scheduling purposes? Tulane does not look promising, nor does UAB. UTEP creates a 1,000 mile range between east/west extreme. If S.Fla was available, do you go the other way and create a 1200 mile spread from east to west? Or, at the risk of bringing the mean green faithful into this thread to remind us that they have 20,000 commuters attending school there, do you look to UNT as a school that has plenty of potential and sets up a nice little 3-way competition along with SMU/TCU for the "Metroplex Mayors' Trophy"?

[Cheesesteak]

CP - You partially read my mind. A future conference would consist of:

My first choice - SMU, TCU, Rice, Houston, Tulsa, La. Tech., Southern Miss. and Memphis. Teams would play 7 conference football games and 4/5 OOC games. Basketball and non-revenue teams would play these opponents two or three times per season as needed (in addition to OOC games) to fill out a schedule.

Another version (my second choice) is the above eight teams as a very tightly knit eastern division a geographically large conference whose western division consisted of eight teams (New Mexico, Colorado State, AFA, BYU, Utah, Boise State, UTEP, Wyoming). These (mostly former) Mountain West schools would travel within the rocky mountain region. I'm willing to ignore Florida, Hawaii and California to cut travel time/costs and establish genuine contiguous state rivalries. California and Florida are too dominated by Pacific 10, SEC and ACC schools to make them worth traveling to for conference games. Generally, mid-major football games can't attract enough media or fan attention to make market positioning worthwile in CA or FL. This 18 team conference isn't WAC 16 redux. Eastern (and western) teams play all sports (revenue and non-revenue) within their geographically sensible division. With the exception of one or two occasional crossover divisional games (includes all sports) per season, schedules would be completed with contests against OOC opponents within a school's geographical region. Maybe a football championship game would be established if interest developed. The value of this size of conference is strength in numbers.

[MeanGreenGem]

Of course, CP, I know you (of all posters on this board) mostly jest, but if UNT truly had 20,000 commuters, that would mean we have 38,000 total enrollment (which we don't) since about 18K UNT students do live on or near campus and really, no matter how many UNT students who commute, most of them live within the Dallas-Denton-Fort Worth triangle which would get them to Denton (and their classrooms) just as quickly as the majority of UT-Austin students. (See 2 paragraphs down from this one on that subject).

POTENTIAL? All I can say is what a newspaper said last week, and that is the UNT/TCU game last Fall drew more than 10,000 more fans than any of the Horned Frogs largest drawing CUSA home games at Amon Carter and that included the all important season ending game in Fort Worth that clinched the CUSA football co-championship and a Liberty Bowl bid for the Frogs. I guess that really is a statement about UNT that goes well beyond the "potential" stage, now doesn't it?

AN INTERESTING TEXAS PUBLIC UNIVERSITY COMMUTER'S SCHOOL TIDBIT: UNT is less a commuter school than UT-Austin according to a fellow UNT alum and CPA friend of mine in Dallas who just put his 2 boys thru the Austin university. He was curious about it himself and with his own research found out that more commute to the UT campus than UNT's.

I realize that this is not such a really big deal but it sort of sheds a different perception on who is a commuter school between UT and UNT than what most on this board would ordinarily believe.

UNT has been in the business the last few decades of eliminating one perception after another BUT I will not defer to "this is not our grandfather's UNT out of respect to another poster on this board!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Charleston Pony:
Or, at the risk of bringing the mean green faithful into this thread to remind us that they have 20,000 commuters attending school there, do you look to UNT as a school that has plenty of potential and sets up a nice little 3-way competition along with SMU/TCU for the "Metroplex Mayors' Trophy"?[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



[This message has been edited by MeanGreenGem (edited 06-09-2003).]

[Stallion]

well get some of those students to a few games and then you might have a pretty strong argument. Once again NTSU's athletic program is held back by its own alumni and students-nobody else.

[MeanGreenGem]

TOO DAMN LONG TO READ/BUT SOME DEFINITE FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

Stallion, we all need to improve our attendance and that none of us can deny. I don't think UNT has a corner of the market, though, on being held back by its alumni or the city/county it is located and lack of support from those constituencies.

GET THIS, STALLION: UNT has still only had 2 winning seasons out of the last 12 years and not too many more "W" seasons the last quarter of a century. I am for certain SMU can relate to how that can affect your turnstiles, that is, when you are not playing the obvious home gimme' attendance games that any of us could draw well against.

Yet, I am encouraged by what I am seeing with the broad base fan support we are getting against the lesser high profile schools that we will all eventually have to prove our worth and will be judged by when the NCAA starts counting those real butts in seats in 2004.

None of us are guaranteed continual home games with those who bring thousands of visiting fans to our stadiums, hence, a reason (IMHO) the 3 local Metroplex (more SMU and UNT than TCU for the moment anyway) schools should play each other because of the built-in crowd an SMU vs UNT football game has traditionally drawn.

I will repeat (I say repeat) to the point of ad nauseum that not one SMU/UNT football game has ever drawn less than 22,000 during the modern era the 2 schools have played. I have been to all of them and can tell you that is the truth.

Now 22,000 for either of our schools during a mediocre football season and at the end of the year with our usual SBC or WAC opponents would be a most welcome sight, now wouldn't it? It could mean a very big difference in our final home football average attendance figures is the prime reason to me for there to be this kind of annual matchup, but with the "spicy" local public vs private school aspects to the game.

NO RIVALRY HERE? I have a video of an entire SMU bench (coaches included) running the entire width of the football field over to the UNT sidelines to get in an old fashioned bruhaha with UNT players over a last play of the first half rumble in that 1990 game. After all was settled down, then SMU Coach Forrest Gregg was grinning like a Cheshire cat. Hell, he almost seemed to enjoy that rumble! (Of course, it was broken up by the refs but it was WWF action at its best but the crowd response is what your present day SMU'ers needed to hear if they think their is no rivalry going on in that game)! You also have to convince me that all those SMU players and coaches running the width of a football field to the UNT bench were feeling that this game was a bit more than just your "business as usual" ho-hum type of game, either.

BUT NOW FOR ANOTHER MOST IMPORTANT REASON: The NCAA is now telling us all that its about numbers, that is, butts in seats. I think they have garnered UNT's undivided attention as I am sure they have SMU's.

A UH COUGAR IN OUR MIDST! At UNT's last home game in November of last Fall before about 22,000 real live fan'nies, I had one of University of Houston's website founders (CoogFans.com) sitting with my group as a special invited guest (his wife is a professor at SMU, BTW, she was pregnant and coudn't make that game); anyway, the UH alum told me how very much impressed he was by the large UNT student turnout in the East Stadium section of Fouts Field. It was a sincere and unsolicited (by me) statement on his part.

I was a little surprised by his statement as I think we never have enough students and wouldn't if 20,000 out of 31K enrollment showed up at Fouts which is an unrealistic percentage for most large enrollment schools (OK, I lied, I'd be estatic with 20K students); but anyway, I told him thanks for the compliment and in light of the blatant stark unadulterated fact that the Mean Green have for the last 2 years started both seasons at a most dismal 0 & 5, I have to admit to being more than just satisfied that we recovered any fans from such horrendous starts those last 2 football seasons.

Our 2002 season ending crowd of 22,000 at Fouts was the most outrageous, loud, raucous crowd I've seen in 30 years of attending UNT games (and that includes the Hayden Fry era). The 23,000 (in a Fouts Field that only seated 20K) in our game with your Mustangs in 1990 was a pretty loud crowd. (BTW, did you know the Denton Fire Marshall during that SMU/UNT game had officials turning about 2-3,000 UNT students away because there was no room to seat them and they were not going to break the city code?

BUT BACK TO OUR SEASON ENDING HOME GAME OF 2002: We've had close to 30,000 at Fouts that were half as loud. You'd had to be there to appreciate what I am saying on that season ending game and I watch the highlights of that game on the 2002 MG highlights DVD from time to time just to listen to the loudest most involved crowd I'd ever seen at Fouts in my 30 years PLUS to watch about 5,000 students and alums tearing down a goal post.

JUST FOR YOU, STALLION: I'll have 2 extra 50 yard line tickets for you and a guests, and if you'll tell me where to meet you, you'll get those 2 tickets and will (just like the UH alum last Fall) be a special guest from me at the game of your choice. I am serious as a heart attack about that one. If you take me up on this, I'd suggest that you'd meet me at the Greenbacker's free BBQ tailgate area near the practice fields behind the East Stadium--real easy to find. Hey! Ask the TCU trainers and some of the Frog fans about that BBQ, they were special invited guests for that when the Frogs were in Denton 2 years ago. They had a blast and enjoyed some darn good BBQ brisket. You know the scene, the kind of food I'm sure yall have at your Boulevard.

BACK TO COLLEGE FOOTBALL: You yourself, Stallion, would have to admit that an 0 & 5 start for most mid major football programs would be the kiss of death for having any semblance of decent attendance for the balance of the season, it would have most of its fans asking the question, "Well, wonder how good the basketball team is going to be?"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Stallion:
<B> well get some of those students to a few games and then you might have a pretty strong argument. Once again NTSU's athletic program is held back by its own alumni and students-nobody else.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>




[This message has been edited by MeanGreenGem (edited 06-09-2003).]

[EastStang]

MGG you hit the nail on the head when you said UNT has had two winning seasons in the last 12, that's it. I understand SMU only had one in that period, but 8 of those years were in the SWC after the death penalty with self-imposed idiotic rules. SMU is ready to rise, its only a matter of time.

[Guest]

The latest word I've heard is that the level of recruits legitimately considering SMU is such that Vincent Chase might not be the star of the class, even with all his accolades. If that's the case, then EastStang is right - SMU really IS ready to rise, and it might be sooner than we think.

[untgrad88]

If UNT-TCU-SMU un the same conference would not develop into a triangle rivalry of the biggest proportions, I will eat my hat. I guarantee you that SMU-UNT, given several years in the same conference, would build a rivalry to the point that 40K would attend every matchup--minimum.

I am encouraged that several of you SMU folks see that, but a little confused as to why EVERYONE doesn't see it. There must still be a lot of misinformation out there about the modern day UNT. Even a casual visit of the campus would change many of your minds. If Houston, Rice, TCU and Tulsa are on your radar, then UNT has to be included in that mix. Pardon my directness, but ya'll would be stupid not to.

Now, if ya'll can get your BCS invite, then of course you would be crazy not to take it, but don't hold your breath.

[MeanGreenGem]

EastStang, many of us who have been around the Mean Green scene too long to even mention have gone as far to say that UNT's 12 years in NCAA 1-AA was our own version of the Death Penalty. We feel we lost a generation of fans during that time span.

After Fry gave us some hope and direction, he then (understandably) took the Big 10 job with Iowa. After some more stumbling around in the UNT athletic dept post-Fry, we went south real quick.

We had an AD who had a chance to list Texas Stadium as a home stadium for UNT and therefore meet the required stadium size when that divisional realignment took place in the early 1980's, but he didn't know that (as the story goes).

UNT has really been its own worst enemy many times, but 2 bowl games in a row has awakened many of the dead created during our 12 year Death Penalty in 1-AA.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by EastStang:
<B>MGG you hit the nail on the head when you said UNT has had two winning seasons in the last 12, that's it. I understand SMU only had one in that period, but 8 of those years were in the SWC after the death penalty with self-imposed idiotic rules. SMU is ready to rise, its only a matter of time.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[MeanGreenGem]

"There must still be a lot of misinformation out there about the modern day UNT. Even a casual visit of the campus would change many of your minds."

untgrad88 and I don't always agree on certain things concerning UNT, but his above quote I will agree with.

BTW, untgrad88 is a United Methodist minister so we now have the "religious" factor working for us up in Mean Green Country! Actually, I wish we had 10,000 more alums/fans just like him supporting our alma mater.

Peace...



[This message has been edited by MeanGreenGem (edited 06-09-2003).]

[MrMustang1965]

untgrad88: since you have a 'connection' with 'the Man upstairs', can you put in a good word for our Mustangs for a new conference and for a winning season in 2003?

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"Winning ain't everything...but it's a lot more fun than the alternative!" S.M.U. SPIRIT: IT STARTS NOW!

[This message has been edited by MrMustang1965 (edited 06-10-2003).]

[LA_Mustang]

Damn it CP, you bring up UNT every time in your little conference scenarios and get the UNT faithful all worked up. My god that is so frustrating. Why?
Its like being a guy in your later 20s and admitting that you used to always watch Zach, Kelly, Jessie (she was the hottest), and Screech on Saved by the Bell and that you liked it. Just keep it to yourself.

[Grider]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LA_Mustang:
<B>Damn it CP, you bring up UNT every time in your little conference scenarios and get the UNT faithful all worked up. My god that is so frustrating. Why?
Its like being a guy in your later 20s and admitting that you used to always watch Zach, Kelly, Jessie (she was the hottest), and Screech on Saved by the Bell and that you liked it. Just keep it to yourself. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some days I don't wear a belt so I can be like Zach Morris.

[MrMustang1965]

What scares me, LA Mustang, is that you actually know the characters' names on that show!

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"Winning ain't everything...but it's a lot more fun than the alternative!" S.M.U. SPIRIT: IT STARTS NOW!