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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby MustangStealth » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:51 pm

couch 'em wrote:By your argument we should have selection committees in every sport. What other sport has that?


Wrong!
MustangStealth wrote:If it were up to me there would be no BCS or playoff.


couch 'em wrote:Or does an NCAA basketball champ not have a valid championship because a team with a better record losses in an earlier round?



While exciting, it is quite stupid. That's how you end up with 1985 Villanova as National Champions even though they went 9-7 in their own conference. Or say, UConn being named National Champions even though they were swept by N.ot I.n T.ournament SMU. It is absolutely a watered down system for awarding titles.
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby couch 'em » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:53 pm

MustangStealth wrote:
couch 'em wrote: A conference championship game is a valid 'first round' selection of top teams like in every other sport.


And other sports have stupid methods for "selection of top teams." Every college football national champion ever has been an exceptional team, even if they weren't unanimous champions. You can't say that about other sports in the US.

If it were up to me there would be no BCS or playoff. And now that the door is opened it will only get bigger and stupider.

So in this one thread you have gone from "wanting the best teams" to play each other to advocating going back to the system where the best teams never played each other. You have to stop coming to SMU games this year, the anti-football is warping your football mind.
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby MustangStealth » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:55 pm

couch 'em wrote:
MustangStealth wrote:
couch 'em wrote:You'll have some odd match ups for in the beginning but it will encourage conferences to move toward parity over time as teams seek an easier path to the conference championship.


THAT is a ridiculous statement. You think the SEC is going to start kicking teams out in the name of 'parity'? Let the ACC have Florida and Georgia. Let the Big 12 have Arkansas and LSU. There, now don't we all feel nicer because everyone's precious snowflakes have more even conferences.

No, of course not. SEC is an unstoppable money machine right now. Over time this may change and teams may shift. I bet Texas is liking their chances at getting into the playoff and associated benefits more than A&M is. (Obviously not this year, long term)


We have already seen the results over time. Over time, the big conferences will continue to consolidate power. Nobody is going to turn down $40M from the SEC to make $20M in the Big12 but have a slightly easier playoff path. Nobody is going to leave the ACC for the AAC because they could go undefeated every couple of years.
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby MustangStealth » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:05 pm

couch 'em wrote:
MustangStealth wrote:
couch 'em wrote: A conference championship game is a valid 'first round' selection of top teams like in every other sport.


And other sports have stupid methods for "selection of top teams." Every college football national champion ever has been an exceptional team, even if they weren't unanimous champions. You can't say that about other sports in the US.

If it were up to me there would be no BCS or playoff. And now that the door is opened it will only get bigger and stupider.

So in this one thread you have gone from "wanting the best teams" to play each other to advocating going back to the system where the best teams never played each other. You have to stop coming to SMU games this year, the anti-football is warping your football mind.


Nope, I want the best teams to be declared champions. If we have to have a playoff, then I want the best teams to be playing in it, without restrictions based on arbitrary affiliations. The bigger the playoff gets, the more likely we are to see an undeserving team win it.

In 2011, UConn won the Big East at 8-4. In 2005, Florida St. won the ACC at 8-4. In 2008, Virginia Tech won the ACC at 9-4. In 2012, Wisconsin won the Big 10 at 8-5. In your proposal, all of these teams are playing for the NC. That is ridiculous. For all it's faults, the old system never would have given any of these the slightest consideration for a NC, because they don't deserve it.
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby couch 'em » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:23 pm

MustangStealth wrote:
couch 'em wrote:
MustangStealth wrote:[quote="couch 'em"] A conference championship game is a valid 'first round' selection of top teams like in every other sport.


And other sports have stupid methods for "selection of top teams." Every college football national champion ever has been an exceptional team, even if they weren't unanimous champions. You can't say that about other sports in the US.

If it were up to me there would be no BCS or playoff. And now that the door is opened it will only get bigger and stupider.

So in this one thread you have gone from "wanting the best teams" to play each other to advocating going back to the system where the best teams never played each other. You have to stop coming to SMU games this year, the anti-football is warping your football mind.


Nope, I want the best teams to be declared champions. If we have to have a playoff, then I want the best teams to be playing in it, without restrictions based on arbitrary affiliations. The bigger the playoff gets, the more likely we are to see an undeserving team win it.

In 2011, UConn won the Big East at 8-4. In 2005, Florida St. won the ACC at 8-4. In 2008, Virginia Tech won the ACC at 9-4. In 2012, Wisconsin won the Big 10 at 8-5. In your proposal, all of these teams are playing for the NC. That is ridiculous. For all it's faults, the old system never would have given any of these the slightest consideration for a NC, because they don't deserve it.[/quote] except your opinion of deserving breaks down when you aren't cherry picking extreme examples. Let's just crown the best SEC team the NC, since in your ideal system nobody in another conference can demonstrate that they are deserving. Let's say UCONN went undefeated instead of 8-4. Even undefeated you couldn't objectively say they are better than a 1-loss SEC team because of conference strength. With 12 team seasons and limited OOC games you don't get enough data to truly do it that way. NBA? Baseball? Sure.
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby MustangStealth » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:20 am

couch 'em wrote:except your opinion of deserving breaks down when you aren't cherry picking extreme examples. Let's just crown the best SEC team the NC, since in your ideal system nobody in another conference can demonstrate that they are deserving. Let's say UCONN went undefeated instead of 8-4. Even undefeated you couldn't objectively say they are better than a 1-loss SEC team because of conference strength. With 12 team seasons and limited OOC games you don't get enough data to truly do it that way. NBA? Baseball? Sure.


4 out of the last 10 years is cherry picking? It's a fact. 40% of the last decade a team has won a power conference with at least 4 losses. If you include 3 loss teams then I think there are 4 more. Meanwhile, in that same time frame, 2011 Alabama (11-1 #2 and eventual NC) would have been left out. 2012 Notre Dame (12-0 #1) would have been left out. How does this make sense to you?
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby couch 'em » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:02 am

MustangStealth wrote:
couch 'em wrote:except your opinion of deserving breaks down when you aren't cherry picking extreme examples. Let's just crown the best SEC team the NC, since in your ideal system nobody in another conference can demonstrate that they are deserving. Let's say UCONN went undefeated instead of 8-4. Even undefeated you couldn't objectively say they are better than a 1-loss SEC team because of conference strength. With 12 team seasons and limited OOC games you don't get enough data to truly do it that way. NBA? Baseball? Sure.


4 out of the last 10 years is cherry picking? It's a fact. 40% of the last decade a team has won a power conference with at least 4 losses. If you include 3 loss teams then I think there are 4 more. Meanwhile, in that same time frame, 2011 Alabama (11-1 #2 and eventual NC) would have been left out. 2012 Notre Dame (12-0 #1) would have been left out. How does this make sense to you?
Interesting you bring up 2011 Alabama - under your preferred criteria of just picking a champion LSU would have been the national champion instead of Alabama. In the end they each beat each other one. Hardly conclusive. If a team has losses but still makes it into an 8 team playoff and wins, it is hard to say they aren't the best.

And your Notre Dame comment is just disingenuous.
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby MustangStealth » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:25 am

couch 'em wrote:Interesting you bring up 2011 Alabama - under your preferred criteria of just picking a champion LSU would have been the national champion instead of Alabama. In the end they each beat each other one. Hardly conclusive. If a team has losses but still makes it into an 8 team playoff and wins, it is hard to say they aren't the best.

And your Notre Dame comment is just disingenuous.


I apologize for being "disingenuous" by applying the exact logic that you espoused.

couch 'em wrote:I'd like to just see the 8 highest rated conference champions. Fair for everyone.


I'm afraid something has addled your brain, my friend.
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby Hoop Fan » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:41 pm

Does the best regular season team win the Super Bowl every year? No. If you want to "declare" a champion, just do it at the beginning of August and don't bother playing the games. Or lets declare that the SEC West is the best college football so the champion has to come from the SEC West. Shut everybody else down. Why bother playing? Do we really need to see Duke-FSU champ games in the ACC? What's the point? The P5 doesnt need the other 58 schools, just the SEC West. Just legislate it so it becomes reality for the next 100 years.

Villanova winning the 85 championship on the court was greatness. So was NC State winning the 83 championship. So was Butler almost winning two championships. Butler was deserving too. In your world, Butler would have never existed. In the P5 money and PR grab, Butler would have been legislated out of existence long ago.
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby MustangStealth » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:11 pm

Hoop Fan wrote:Does the best regular season team win the Super Bowl every year? No.


I've already addressed that. Of course not, and that leads to the ridiculousness that the 13-6 Giants get to call themselves "World Champions" but the 18-1 Patriots don't, even though they played twice and split the games. The system says only the last one counted. My point is that everyone says "decide it on the field" then ignores the first 80% of the results on the field and only counts what happens in the last 20%.

Hoop Fan wrote:Villanova winning the 85 championship on the court was greatness. So was NC State winning the 83 championship. So was Butler almost winning two championships. Butler was deserving too. In your world, Butler would have never existed. In the P5 money and PR grab, Butler would have been legislated out of existence long ago.


When did I say they should never exist? I'm saying that including all of these teams in the championship is not about "greatness", it is about creating an exciting, salable TV product. As I said earlier, it's exciting, but it's a ridiculous way to choose a champion. That 2011 Butler team lost to Valparaiso, UW-Milwaukee, Youngstown St., Evansville, etc. To claim that they were one of the top 2 teams in the country is absurd. Exciting and entertaining, absolutely. A great team? No way.

In my mind, "greatness" is about beating your opponents, from the first game to the last. That is what you should be judged on. It should not be about rewarding everyone who was above average and then starting over. Villanova won it "on the court" even though Georgetown and St. John's and numerous other teams did far more on the court.
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby Hoop Fan » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:01 pm

So you don't like the playoff/tournament concept at all? The seeding process usually rewards the top teams with a much easier path in the tournament. What you say about that Butler team is true, some bad midseason losses, but they also beat the #1 #2 and #4 seeds in their region just to make the Final Four. Thats a tough road. And the following year when Gordon Heyward missed that shot at the buzzer to beat Duke, they were very worthy of being in that champ game. Just saying how will you ever have a perfect way of ensuring the most talented team wins every championship? is that even what you want? i want the team that puts it all together and rises to the challenge of the big moment and handles the ultimate pressure to be called champs.

Last thing i would say is home field/court, and scheduling, is too a big a factor in regular season matchups. You only really have a true comparison when games are played on a nuetral field.
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby MustangStealth » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:57 pm

Hoop Fan wrote:So you don't like the playoff/tournament concept at all? The seeding process usually rewards the top teams with a much easier path in the tournament. What you say about that Butler team is true, some bad midseason losses, but they also beat the #1 #2 and #4 seeds in their region just to make the Final Four. Thats a tough road. And the following year when Gordon Heyward missed that shot at the buzzer to beat Duke, they were very worthy of being in that champ game. Just saying how will you ever have a perfect way of ensuring the most talented team wins every championship? is that even what you want? i want the team that puts it all together and rises to the challenge of the big moment and handles the ultimate pressure to be called champs.

Last thing i would say is home field/court, and scheduling, is too a big a factor in regular season matchups. You only really have a true comparison when games are played on a nuetral field.



For football there is no perfect solution because you just can't play enough games.

For basketball it's easy though.

You play the regular season as is, including conference tournaments. You have a poll system crown a national champion. Top teams will have to schedule non-conference games against each other if they want to win it. You will have to have marquee wins to set yourself apart at the top.

Then in March/April, you play the NCAA tournament with every team in the nation involved. Before anybody cries about extending the season... this would only add 2 rounds to the existing tournament. You still have the play-in round on a Tuesday at campus sites, it would just be much larger (currently you would have 95 games in this round). Then you have the rounds of 256 and 128 on Thursday-Sunday, and then after that you are down to the same 64 team tournament we are used to. It adds all of 1 week (2 games) to the season. The ranking committee probably won't want to seed 351 teams, so they could just seed the top 64 or 100 or something, and then apply RPI after that. Done. The winner is crowned NCAA Tournament Champions.

Now everyone can be happy. You have a season champion, the best team wire-to-wire. You have a tournament champion, the team that "rises to the challenge of the big moment" as you said. Nobody gets "snubbed" by the selection committee and excluded from the tournament. And at the same time, a team that goes 30-3 in the regular season doesn't lose everything when they slip up against some mid-major playing a wacky style and having a hot 3-point shooting day. If you want a little extra drama, you can even schedule an annual tip-off game between the previous season's champion and the tournament winner.
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby couch 'em » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:27 pm

MustangStealth wrote:
I'm afraid something has addled your brain, my friend.


I'll addle you!
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby MustangStealth » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:44 pm

couch 'em wrote:
MustangStealth wrote:
I'm afraid something has addled your brain, my friend.


I'll addle you!


I hope you enjoyed last night's game between the 1st place Saints (4-7) and the last place Ravens (7-4)!
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Re: ESPN: Poll shows FBS coaches want 8 team playoff

Postby White Helmet » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:23 pm

couch 'em wrote:
MustangStealth wrote:
I'm afraid something has addled your brain, my friend.


I'll addle you!


I vote for a Boulevard Boxing Match!
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