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Realignment Update

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Re: Realignment Update

Postby laxdawg97 » Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:50 pm

Dukie wrote:
giacfsp wrote:I know that's the perception of the school -- old folks will remember the t-shirts with the BMW logo with the letters "SMU" around it -- but is it accurate? Apart from a handful of very generous alums, how extensive are our resources?

What? Very extensive. And when engaged/motivated they dwarf Duke’s, for one. (Not enough of the Duke alums with serious money care about sports—think Melinda Gates, not Lamar Hunt.

It's a valid question why, if SMU's biggest stakeholders care about sports, they haven't been more engaged while their counterparts at TCU were upping the ante. There was never a salary cap on facilities or staff.

Seems to me that Turner has kept the throne for 30 years in large part because of his ability to maintain a balance of power among a handful of alpha egos with differing views of the relative importance of football, basketball, and academics (particularly arts & sciences). Each of the main dudes got their turn as board chair, but none was allowed too much runway to advance their view of athletics at the expense of another.

By contrast, the Bush presidential library happened because it was really important to one (or more) of those guys. The library and its parking took a huge bite out of SMU's available land for expanding both the athletics footprint and the student body/faculty. The process also consumed a decent chunk of Turner's goodwill with the faculty, and whether it's actually accretive to SMU's academic prestige is an open question.

It's funny to me to see comments about Duke, especially with the regular shots taken at Ken Pye. I dug into the history a bit during covid and learned Pye came to SMU because he believed it could grow into Duke (which at the time had recently won the ACC in football under Steve Spurrier, in addition to MBB success). I'm not sure how Duke got their stadium renovated or the basketball Disneyland built, but the money came from somewhere. I'd guess that Coach K himself got enough donors in the room and persuaded them to check their egos and stop worrying about whose name went where on the plaque. That's leadership.
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby Topper » Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:46 pm

Those old enough to remember the 70s and 80s will recall that there was a significant group of faculty who wanted SMU to be another Emory. When the DP was imposed the leadership implosion went all the way to the top and the faculty took control Pye was their guy. A small group of alums who had not been directly tainted by the scandal held things together. Remember the Cornerstone Package? Times were tough and it didn't help when Pye passively/aggressively concede that we would continue in Division 1 but that we wouldn't compete for championships very often. TCU made the most of our malaise.
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby ponyboy » Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:59 pm

I remember it because I stepped foot on campus and we got the death penalty.
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby Charleston Pony » Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:53 pm

laxdawg97 wrote:It's funny to me to see comments about Duke, especially with the regular shots taken at Ken Pye. I dug into the history a bit during covid and learned Pye came to SMU because he believed it could grow into Duke (which at the time had recently won the ACC in football under Steve Spurrier, in addition to MBB success). I'm not sure how Duke got their stadium renovated or the basketball Disneyland built, but the money came from somewhere. I'd guess that Coach K himself got enough donors in the room and persuaded them to check their egos and stop worrying about whose name went where on the plaque. That's leadership.


I lived in Durham from 1987-1991 and ran in the same social circle as several of the Duke coaches and can assure you that in their view, Ken Pye was no friend of athletics. A couple of coaches told me when SMU hired Pye that his hiring, in combination with coming off the death penalty, would be the "death" of big time athletics at SMU. I think the common theme I heard from them was that if Pye had his way, college athletics would be "intramural sports"
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby Charleston Pony » Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:01 pm

Topper wrote:Those old enough to remember the 70s and 80s will recall that there was a significant group of faculty who wanted SMU to be another Emory. When the DP was imposed the leadership implosion went all the way to the top and the faculty took control Pye was their guy. A small group of alums who had not been directly tainted by the scandal held things together. Remember the Cornerstone Package? Times were tough and it didn't help when Pye passively/aggressively concede that we would continue in Division 1 but that we wouldn't compete for championships very often. TCU made the most of our malaise.


One of my college roommates' father was on the Board of Trustees at SMU in that time frame and was of the opinion SMU would never be able to compete with the larger public institutions as it was becoming obvious television was taking control of college athletics. He was advocating SMU join Rice, TCU, Baylor, Tulane and other "southern privates" and break away from the SWC. A lot of people referred to that vision, which would probably have been shared years later by Pye, as the "Magnolia Conference". Fortunately, the Trustees rejected that proposal and decided to emphasize football and bball and Ron Meyer was brought in to build a football program that wouldmake SMU nationally known. Otherwise, SMU might have become the "Emory of Dallas"
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby Topper » Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:41 pm

Charleston Pony wrote:
Topper wrote:Those old enough to remember the 70s and 80s will recall that there was a significant group of faculty who wanted SMU to be another Emory. When the DP was imposed the leadership implosion went all the way to the top and the faculty took control Pye was their guy. A small group of alums who had not been directly tainted by the scandal held things together. Remember the Cornerstone Package? Times were tough and it didn't help when Pye passively/aggressively concede that we would continue in Division 1 but that we wouldn't compete for championships very often. TCU made the most of our malaise.


One of my college roommates' father was on the Board of Trustees at SMU in that time frame and was of the opinion SMU would never be able to compete with the larger public institutions as it was becoming obvious television was taking control of college athletics. He was advocating SMU join Rice, TCU, Baylor, Tulane and other "southern privates" and break away from the SWC. A lot of people referred to that vision, which would probably have been shared years later by Pye, as the "Magnolia Conference". Fortunately, the Trustees rejected that proposal and decided to emphasize football and bball and Ron Meyer was brought in to build a football program that wouldmake SMU nationally known. Otherwise, SMU might have become the "Emory of Dallas"

Yes there are still Magnolia League advocates. Pye liked the idea of the "Southern Ivies" and his hiring was instigated by a faculty council of whom many wanted to go the way of Sewanee by abolishing scholarships. If I remember correctly SMU's books included tuition and fees for scholarship athletes transferred from the Athletic Department account. That account was heavily subsidized by the Mustang Club and other boosters.
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby orguy » Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:34 pm

Charleston Pony wrote:
Topper wrote:Those old enough to remember the 70s and 80s will recall that there was a significant group of faculty who wanted SMU to be another Emory. When the DP was imposed the leadership implosion went all the way to the top and the faculty took control Pye was their guy. A small group of alums who had not been directly tainted by the scandal held things together. Remember the Cornerstone Package? Times were tough and it didn't help when Pye passively/aggressively concede that we would continue in Division 1 but that we wouldn't compete for championships very often. TCU made the most of our malaise.


One of my college roommates' father was on the Board of Trustees at SMU in that time frame and was of the opinion SMU would never be able to compete with the larger public institutions as it was becoming obvious television was taking control of college athletics. He was advocating SMU join Rice, TCU, Baylor, Tulane and other "southern privates" and break away from the SWC. A lot of people referred to that vision, which would probably have been shared years later by Pye, as the "Magnolia Conference". Fortunately, the Trustees rejected that proposal and decided to emphasize football and bball and Ron Meyer was brought in to build a football program that wouldmake SMU nationally known. Otherwise, SMU might have become the "Emory of Dallas"


Interesting how far we have dropped behind Tulane. Schools like Emory and Vanderbilt
were always far ahead of us but never Tulane. Failure of leadership in the form of a non
academically oriented board of trustees.


BTW; 1000 percent behind growing athletics. The mention of piggie pye above made me cringe.
Likely we are moving forward to a new conference very soon. Future is bright IMHO.
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby gostangs » Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:00 pm

We've been behind Tulane for a pretty long time. They played some games to jack up their applications a few years ago and jumped up - got caught and have drifted back down, but still above us.
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby Mustangs_Maroons » Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:11 pm

gostangs wrote:We've been behind Tulane for a pretty long time. They played some games to jack up their applications a few years ago and jumped up - got caught and have drifted back down, but still above us.


I think the student body at Tulane is pretty comparable to, or perhaps a bit better than that of, SMU. Tulane also does a very good job of attracting a national pool of candidates, but their overall reach is much better and they have a stronger reputation academically speaking than we do. Whatever they have done to increase applications is something I'm shocked that SMU hasn't done. At the end of the day, it's all about perception, and we should be adopting what other universities are doing to increase the applications. We need to increase the selectivity point for SMU to truly rise in rankings perceptions.
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby ShorePony » Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:04 pm

My impression from having a kid at Tulane, is that Tulane has a much broader geographic representation than SMU, largely from Bos, NYC, NJ, Conn., Fla., Chicagoland and Calif. Like a national golf club, kids at Tulane come in and then return to their home states, or they take the "private pipeline" to California and the Northeast for employment. Most private college admissions consultants seem to place Tulane in a higher strata than SMU, which sadly seems to be descending toward a rising TCU.
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby Mustangs_Maroons » Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:29 pm

ShorePony wrote:My impression from having a kid at Tulane, is that Tulane has a much broader geographic representation than SMU, largely from Bos, NYC, NJ, Conn., Fla., Chicagoland and Calif. Like a national golf club, kids at Tulane come in and then return to their home states, or they take the "private pipeline" to California and the Northeast for employment. Most private college admissions consultants seem to place Tulane in a higher strata than SMU, which sadly seems to be descending toward a rising TCU.


I strongly disagree with your last point. SMU and Tulane are much more comparable academic speaking, than SMU and TCU. As someone that lives in the northeast, I know that while options in the southwest are not as popular, most students still put SMU as an option, along with others such as Rice, Tulane, Emory. TCU is not in that tier. The stats of the student body also bear that out.
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby mustangxc » Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:03 am

Mustangs_Maroons wrote:
gostangs wrote:We've been behind Tulane for a pretty long time. They played some games to jack up their applications a few years ago and jumped up - got caught and have drifted back down, but still above us.


I think the student body at Tulane is pretty comparable to, or perhaps a bit better than that of, SMU. Tulane also does a very good job of attracting a national pool of candidates, but their overall reach is much better and they have a stronger reputation academically speaking than we do. Whatever they have done to increase applications is something I'm shocked that SMU hasn't done. At the end of the day, it's all about perception, and we should be adopting what other universities are doing to increase the applications. We need to increase the selectivity point for SMU to truly rise in rankings perceptions.


Our conservative reputation doesn't do us any favors. If you want the biggest pool of candidates we need to stay in the middle. Cal turns off most moderates to conservatives, SMU turns off most moderates to liberals.
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby Charleston Pony » Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:01 am

Granted it was over 50 years ago when I decided to attend SMU but I can't remember meeting a single kid who chose SMU because of it's conservative reputation. We all came to learn and prepare to make a living in the world and most were pretty open minded. It's a shame that politics has become such a focus in so many people's lives. Maybe that's just something that happens as you get older and wiser, or at least more experienced?

At any rate, reading this thread I see the debate raging as to whether the PAC or Big XII is the "better" conference and thanks to Stanford and Cal, the PAC would have to be viewed as a stronger academic group of schools but this is a sports site and to say the new PAC will be a stronger athletic conference is a difficult position to defend. Forgetting UT & OU and USC & UCLA, didn't TCU just make the Final Four in football and isn't KSU headed to the Sweet 16? The PAC with Utah, Oregon & Washington has some pretty stout football programs but so does the Big XII and both conferences have some strong basketball schools.

To me, it looks like a wash and I would expect the media packages of the 2 conferences to be similar. I do know that my local cable provider offers BIG 10, SEC, ACC & PAC 12 networks options (as well as The Longhorn Network) but does not offer any Big XII network. I also know that as an east coaster, I'm not as excited as most about the possibility of joining a west coast conference where my team might have a lot of 10:00-11:00 pm start times. I hated the WAC for the same reason (midnight games in Hawaii). For the sake of having more central time zone members, that's why I really like the idea of Tulane also getting invited to the PAC
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby Water Pony » Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:05 pm

CP,

I agree with your post. However, the academic status is more relevant to PAC-12 (10) Chancellors and Presidents, who have historically put a premium on the quality and academic reputations of their peer schools. More importantly, these leaders are making the final decision, not their ADs. The media doesn't care as much about this issue, since athletic programming and their viewers are their target market.
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Re: Realignment Update

Postby mustangxc » Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:23 pm

Charleston Pony wrote: I can't remember meeting a single kid who chose SMU because of it's conservative reputation.

Agreed! The issue is that if you lean too much in a particular direction you may not attract people, but you will certainly drive people away. I'm a moderate, I don't want to go to a school that has liberal fanatics or leans MAGA. I'm a heterosexual, but when I saw that US News or Princeton Review had ranked Texas A&M in the top 5 of least accepting of homosexuals I realized they would not be a good fit due to their intolerance.
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