Some real gems

[MustangStealth]

Check out the forums from Doherty's hire.

http://www.ponyfans.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=3&start=2500

Here are some of my favorites:

It was not the tough ACC schedule that made him lose in 2001-02 (8-20 Record), it was bad coaching. This is with talent that is easily 3X better than SMU has.


Hampton - 11/16/01 - L 77-69 - AT HOME

Davidson - 11/20/01 - L 58-54 - AT HOME

CofC - 12/21/01 - L 66-60 - In Charlotte, might as well be HOME

Ohio - 2/20/02 - L 86-78 - AT HOME

I think Doherty is a great hire for SMU. Orsini is making waves already. It won't be too long before UT news get bumped to page 2 permanently in Dallas.

Just my $.02, keep the change.

YES he is quite the coup. He is a former coach at UNC and ND. He was a fromer Coach of the Year. He is a household name recognized by easily over 50% of college basketball fans. If you don't think that is a big deal for SMU then you are crazy. I must admit, he's not the "coup" your boy Jimmy Tubbs was though. Hate to see us take such a large step back at the caliber of coaches we are offering jobs to.

^If only he had known how true it was.

And this one is particularly fitting for today's conversations.

Because of his name alone, Doh will have a much longer grace period to improve our record than Tubbs ever had. It's harsh, but that's reality. When you can put on your resume, "AP Coach of the Year", and you've been successful at ND and NC (even if his success only lasted the first year), those are the perks.

But I fully expect us to improve our conference record with Doh at the helm, don't underestimate how hard the players will work for him. And straight X's and O's will not be a problem.

[MustangIcon]

Check out the forums from Doherty's hire.

http://www.ponyfans.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=3&start=2500

Here are some of my favorites:

YES he is quite the coup. He is a former coach at UNC and ND. He was a fromer Coach of the Year. He is a household name recognized by easily over 50% of college basketball fans. If you don't think that is a big deal for SMU then you are crazy. I must admit, he's not the "coup" your boy Jimmy Tubbs was though. Hate to see us take such a large step back at the caliber of coaches we are offering jobs to.

I expected Doherty to be great with alums (check!, he even did us one better by getting Crum built), upgrade our level of talent (check!, see below), and take that alum support and upgraded talent and build a winner (fail!). I admit that to this point he has not been able to develop players and a winning, cohesive team.

Player and notable info on them prior to joining SMU:
Papa Dia- offers from OU and Louisville
Paul McCoy- offers from Kentucky and Virginia
Mo Faye- Georgia Tech Transfer
Ryan Harp- offers from Stanford, Texas Tech, Wake Forrest, and others. Top 15 player in the state, Dallas-based AAU team (Dallas Mustangs)
Derek Williams- 20ppg JUCO player that was pretty highly regarded

And I really do think Haynes, Clink, Nayakundi are nice players too. This is before we even start to consider the 2010 class. To me this is a significant upgrade in talent. That is why I am so shocked that Doh has not been able to piece it together. I thought for sure that with the majority of the team returning (only lost Bamba) and only 2 newcomers that he would have them working together and ready to kick some butt this year. That may very well still be the case, but it certainly isn't as of yet. Let's go get TCU and get this season jump started!

[MustangStealth]

With the exception of McCoy, I'm still not sold that any of those players represent upgraded talent over the players we had immediately pre-Doherty.

BHop - a lot of people feel he didn't live up to expectations, but he was still a great player; in our top 3 players of the last decade
Bamba - never developed the strength he needed for this level, but Doherty has not found a better C
Brian Morris - showed promise as a Fr, left with Tubbs
Derrick Roberts - showed great potential, but regressed under Doherty
Devon Pearson - could probably out rebound this entire team
Brian Epps - JUCO transfer, provided an outside threat
Ike - big bodied JUCO transfer, again I would probably take him over anyone on this team
Rack - not the most athletic, but didn't get pushed around inside and wasn't afraid to play down low
Jon Killen - one of Doherty's few bright spots, he really came alive under Doh

[MustangIcon]

With the exception of McCoy, I'm still not sold that any of those players represent upgraded talent over the players we had immediately pre-Doherty.

BHop - a lot of people feel he didn't live up to expectations, but he was still a great player; in our top 3 players of the last decade
Bamba - never developed the strength he needed for this level, but Doherty has not found a better C
Brian Morris - showed promise as a Fr, left with Tubbs
Derrick Roberts - showed great potential, but regressed under Doherty
Devon Pearson - could probably out rebound this entire team
Brian Epps - JUCO transfer, provided an outside threat
Ike - big bodied JUCO transfer, again I would probably take him over anyone on this team
Rack - not the most athletic, but didn't get pushed around inside and wasn't afraid to play down low
Jon Killen - one of Doherty's few bright spots, he really came alive under Doh

I have two main takeaways from your analysis:

1. You make a good point about the development of Killen under Doherty but completely missed the development of Ike under Doherty too. Ike played like dogsh*t before Doherty got here (3ppg and 3rpg as a starter his Junior year to 14/7 his Senior year). How did those players transform their games/performance under Doherty but he cannot do anything with developing his own players? It is pretty shocking.
2. As you can see from my breakdown, I am discussing the quality of players PRIOR to them arriving at SMU in order to highlight that they were quality, highly sought after kids that we have not come close to even sniffing their potential. You disucussed everyone from a standpoint of their production at SMU, nothing prior. So, I am going to post my take on the players you listed based on the prospects they were BEFORE arriving at SMU. By doing this I am hoping to show that we have very talented players (brought in by Doh) but that it is on Doh for not developing that talent.

BHop - Easily the best recruit SMU has had in the past 10+ years. 5 star. Great talent. Gave up 2 scholarships for him, and it was worth it, but not the typical everyday recruiting situation.
Bamba - Played sparingly on the best HS in the nation- Oak Hill. Not highly recruited at all but certainly worth a flyer, like many 7footers.
Brian Morris - I don't know exactly how highly recruited or not he was, but he was very good as a freshman. Fantastic footwork and you are right he showed promise.
Derrick Roberts - Top 10-15 rated player in the state (similar to Harp) and top scorer in Houston. He DID NOT regress under Doherty. His game was never the same after getting chronic knee problems. Injuries derailed his career, not coaching.
Devon Pearson - solid recruit. some publication had him as a top 200 player nationally coming out of HS.
Brian Epps - JUCO transfer not even half the recruit that either Williams or Clink were
Ike - Was not among the to 50-75 players in the state coming out of highschool and, as I mentioned before, was garbage until Doherty got here.
Rack - TK was more highly sought after in HS. Really played well in his senior year under Doherty.
Jon Killen - Was a nothing recruit and as you said really came alive under Doh

If I were to generally rank the players from both teams on how attractive they were as a recruit, PRIOR to coming to SMU, this would my ranking:
1. Bhop
2. McCoy
2. MoFaye
2. Dia
(those 3 you could argue in any order I feel like)
5. D-Rob
6. Harp
7. Pearson
8. Morris (someone who remembers his recruitment better may be able to adjust his ranking more accurately)
9. D-Williams
9. Clink
11&below. the rest

I would be interested to see other opinions of the ranking of those players vs the current players (prior to coming to SMU).

[Balatro Diabolus Ex]

No one remembers Dez Willingham?

[RGV Pony]

No one remembers Dez Willingham?

quite the disappearing act after that game-winner at TCU. Maybe that put him in the doghouse for running off the court.

[MustangIcon]

Can't believe I forgot about Dez. I even mentioned the Dallas Mustangs which are (or is it now were?) coached by his father.

Dez was a 4-star, rivals 100 guy out of HS with offers from us and KState. Played at Kstate as a frosh and chipped in 4ppg and 3apg. Sat out the next season and attended CC then came to SMU with 3 years of eligibility. Was rated higher out of HS than Dia or McCoy (ie 4star) but didn't have as high profile of offers. Had similar production as Faye had his frosh year. You could make a case for Dez to be ranked anywhere from #2 to #5 on the ranking I posted above.

Thanks for the reminder on Dez, Ex. Would you mind posting your forced ranking of the players mentioned in this thread? Would be curious to see your thoughts.

[Balatro Diabolus Ex]

The criteria for your rankings is somewhat subjective, it's a matter of opinion how attractive a recruit was, and opinions vary. For instance, most people on this board were ecstatic to hear about Faye transferring, because he was from Tech and they put alot of value on his coming from a large name school. To most people in the basketball world, though, Faye was a pariah. After he was kicked out of Georgia Tech for cheating, no other D1 school wanted to touch him, he had a reputation as being a locker room problem with no interest in going to class. We were the only school that wanted him, and it seemed like a desperation move. Two widely diverging viewpoints on the same player.

I wouldnt disagree with your rankings to any great degree. I would put Dez in between Hopkins and McCoy, and might have Brian Morris a little higher. Morris did have an offer from Fresno State, and some interest from Xavier, if I recall, and several of the west coast schools were showing interest at the end of his senior year. Those are minor differences, though.

The one thing I will disagree on, is Bamba. He didnt play sparingly at Oak Hill, he started every game except 2 he missed with an injury. He played plenty of minutes, he just didnt score much, because Oak Hill was loaded with guys who could score. One player who didnt even start at Oak Hill (KC Rivers) was 2nd-team All-ACC, and lead Clemson in points. Oak Hill asked Bamba to play defense and rebound, so that's what he did for them. I wont run down the Oak Hill roster and remind everyone who was on that team (unless you want me to), but they were overloaded with guys who could put the ball in the basket, so Bamba rarely touched the ball at the offensive end.

Bamba averaged 12 points per game as a junior at SMU, more than Faye as a junior, and more than Papa so far in his junior season. His shooting percentages stayed virtually the same, but his point totals went down his senior year, because he took fewer shots, because McCoy and Williams held the ball on every possession. Bamba may not have been a star, but he was better than most give him credit for.

[PonyDoh]

The criteria for your rankings is somewhat subjective, it's a matter of opinion how attractive a recruit was, and opinions vary. For instance, most people on this board were ecstatic to hear about Faye transferring, because he was from Tech and they put alot of value on his coming from a large name school. To most people in the basketball world, though, Faye was a pariah. After he was kicked out of Georgia Tech for cheating, no other D1 school wanted to touch him, he had a reputation as being a locker room problem with no interest in going to class. We were the only school that wanted him, and it seemed like a desperation move. Two widely diverging viewpoints on the same player.

I wouldnt disagree with your rankings to any great degree. I would put Dez in between Hopkins and McCoy, and might have Brian Morris a little higher. Morris did have an offer from Fresno State, and some interest from Xavier, if I recall, and several of the west coast schools were showing interest at the end of his senior year. Those are minor differences, though.

The one thing I will disagree on, is Bamba. He didnt play sparingly at Oak Hill, he started every game except 2 he missed with an injury. He played plenty of minutes, he just didnt score much, because Oak Hill was loaded with guys who could score. One player who didnt even start at Oak Hill (KC Rivers) was 2nd-team All-ACC, and lead Clemson in points. Oak Hill asked Bamba to play defense and rebound, so that's what he did for them. I wont run down the Oak Hill roster and remind everyone who was on that team (unless you want me to), but they were overloaded with guys who could put the ball in the basket, so Bamba rarely touched the ball at the offensive end.

Bamba averaged 12 points per game as a junior at SMU, more than Faye as a junior, and more than Papa so far in his junior season. His shooting percentages stayed virtually the same, but his point totals went down his senior year, because he took fewer shots, because McCoy and Williams held the ball on every possession. Bamba may not have been a star, but he was better than most give him credit for.

As always, a well thought out post, but i'd take objection to Faye & Bamba. The Faye incident at Tech wasn't nearly the red flag you're making it out to be, and he did have suitors after it, not just us. He was placed here, simple as that. You're spot on about him and class, though. Not sure that makes him a locker room cancer though. Very few kids at high majors like class or study hall, just check their tweets. It's all they [deleted] about. As for Bamba, he started at Oak Hill to win jumps. He didn't truly play a meaningful role on that team, and was considered a low major coming out.

Beyond that, I think people need to understand the bloom was very much off the Bhop rose by the time he made his SMU verbal. Still a great get for SMU, and a quality ranking, but most evaluators were dropping him. OTOH, McCoy was rising up the board by the end of his senior year. I'd say they were a push, mostly b/c Bhop's 5 star ranking was over the top. Overall though, nice write up