PonyDoh: Give us a primer

[friarwolf]

..St Mary's..

on another note, PonyDoh, tell us how Baylor went from what they were to where they are, getting the recruits they do. From the get-go, what did Drew have to do? Hang out at AAU tournaments? Have Nike guys over for dinner? How did that happen?

RGV, Drew is pretty shady on the trail. Not saying he pays, but take the John Wall example. Drew hires the brother of the head of D-One Sports, Dwon Clifton, to a newly created hoops operations position at Baylor. He's generally considered unqualified for the title. A national stink arises that Drew basically hired and paid Clifton to get to Wall. B/c of the media glare, Wall no longer leans to Baylor and heads to UK. In the interim, the NCAA passes rules that schools can't hire family/friends to get to players. Not one year later, D-One Sports new PG, Stargell Love, a kid we recruited, is handed to Baylor by Clifton etc. Love goes to QEA which is a diploma mill and stands for Quality Education Academy(lol). From what I understand, Baylor took Love's verbal w/o ever seeing his transcript first.

Also, Drew is tied at the hip to the Seawolves program in Dallas, see Perry Jones & Bakari Turner. Something smells in Waco, and it's not just Waco

Baylor also has Jerome Tang which contributes mightily to the smell............

[ontheedgeofmyseat]

What really cool things did Baylor tell recruits about history / legacy / "glory days"...

[PonyDoh]

Point is?...we won't ever get 4 and 5 star guys anyway (unless we become part of the elite)...our academic standards are 'adjusting' now for good athletes and we CAN compete and the C-USA has some really good coaches and players, so lets get it on......lets think on the Western side like Gonzaga instead of Georgetown.

Gonzaga is a wonderful model for us. I'm w/you there

PonyDoh, I have really enjoyed reading this. Its been both interesting & educational to me.
I think the Zag model is a good one. But I also think conference rival Tulsa would be a very realistic program to try to emulate. Many similarities, geographically, enrollment, academics, etc.
Also, if you look @ their roster each year, they always have around 5-6 players from Texas. Not necessary the highest rated prospects, but players that fit their system.
Its also interesting to me that Rice & Tulane, the other 2 schools in CUSA very similar to SMU & Tulsa, are facing the same struggles as SMU. What is Tulsa doing thats different from SMU, Rice & Tulane?

Well, I can't say that I've spent much time checking out Tulsa's model, but they do seem to have better success in the last 15 years or so. I'll look into it. You touched on several things that make sense to me, though. First, you have to recruit to system. As you and I have discussed, we're getting closer to that in '10, but still no true PG to make it run. Second, it may be a bit early to judge Braun at Rice. He's bringing in some players, but unlike Doh, it doesn't look like he's been given unilateral control of gutting the roster. In short, it takes a minute when you can only add 3 at a time or whatever.

Tulane is hampered by one Dave Dickerson. Dave was a fairly ineffective assistant for Gary Williams at Maryland for years, and ex-Terp player. It was his only real coaching experience pre-Tulane, and to be honest, he's never dealt w/a private. Furthermore, most of the Terp teams he was around prided themselves on superior athleticism, which isn't something he can mimic at Tulane. I think they feel a certain loyalty to the man b/c he took the job months before Katrina and held it together, but his ceiling is low. Here's a story Maryland fans like to tell about ol'Dave. Dickerson went to scout Kevin Durant for Maryland after his soph year in high school, and actually told the kid he wasn't ACC material. He'll never live it down in College Park.

[papawasamustang]

Well, I can't say that I've spent much time checking out Tulsa's model, but they do seem to have better success in the last 15 years or so. I'll look into it. You touched on several things that make sense to me, though. First, you have to recruit to system. As you and I have discussed, we're getting closer to that in '10, but still no true PG to make it run. Second, it may be a bit early to judge Braun at Rice. He's bringing in some players, but unlike Doh, it doesn't look like he's been given unilateral control of gutting the roster. In short, it takes a minute when you can only add 3 at a time or whatever.

Tulane is hampered by one Dave Dickerson. Dave was a fairly ineffective assistant for Gary Williams at Maryland for years, and ex-Terp player. It was his only real coaching experience pre-Tulane, and to be honest, he's never dealt w/a private. Furthermore, most of the Terp teams he was around prided themselves on superior athleticism, which isn't something he can mimic at Tulane. I think they feel a certain loyalty to the man b/c he took the job months before Katrina and held it together, but his ceiling is low. Here's a story Maryland fans like to tell about ol'Dave. Dickerson went to scout Kevin Durant for Maryland after his soph year in high school, and actually told the kid he wasn't ACC material. He'll never live it down in College Park.[/quote]

Braun may have made the same mistake Doh did re: recruiting. I thought it was a mistake when Doh brought in 7 freshman & I don't think it was the best thing for Rice last season bringing in 6,
although I really like Jackson & Kazemi.

[PonyDoh]

Well, I can't say that I've spent much time checking out Tulsa's model, but they do seem to have better success in the last 15 years or so. I'll look into it. You touched on several things that make sense to me, though. First, you have to recruit to system. As you and I have discussed, we're getting closer to that in '10, but still no true PG to make it run. Second, it may be a bit early to judge Braun at Rice. He's bringing in some players, but unlike Doh, it doesn't look like he's been given unilateral control of gutting the roster. In short, it takes a minute when you can only add 3 at a time or whatever.

Tulane is hampered by one Dave Dickerson. Dave was a fairly ineffective assistant for Gary Williams at Maryland for years, and ex-Terp player. It was his only real coaching experience pre-Tulane, and to be honest, he's never dealt w/a private. Furthermore, most of the Terp teams he was around prided themselves on superior athleticism, which isn't something he can mimic at Tulane. I think they feel a certain loyalty to the man b/c he took the job months before Katrina and held it together, but his ceiling is low. Here's a story Maryland fans like to tell about ol'Dave. Dickerson went to scout Kevin Durant for Maryland after his soph year in high school, and actually told the kid he wasn't ACC material. He'll never live it down in College Park.

Braun may have made the same mistake Doh did re: recruiting. I thought it was a mistake when Doh brought in 7 freshman & I don't think it was the best thing for Rice last season bringing in 6,
although I really like Jackson & Kazemi.[/quote]

Wow, I wasn't aware they brought in 6, so maybe he does have unilateral roster control and can run kids off, interesting, Both Jackson and Kazemi can play though. They have a pretty decent '10 class lined up, including a one-time Wash St verbal. That said, I haven't heard flattering things about the PG from Cali they signed.

[Pony_Fan]

Obviously the 7 freshman was a huge mistake for RoboDoh.

http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=337177 (12-08 post)

[Charleston Pony]

one BIG difference between SMU and Tulsa hoops is the level of fan support the programs enjoy. Granted, Tulsa doesn't have major league sports to compete with, but even in their down years, they've enjoyed respectable crowds and that does make a difference in recruiting the mid-tier kid

[ponyscott]

And Tulsa has a great history of choosing Coaches as well...including the brothers there now from Michigan State..

Clarence Iba, brother of Henry Iba, helped to springboard Tulsa to success when named the head coach in 1949. He coached at the school for 11 years, the longest tenure of any Tulsa coach, and is the all-time winningest coach at the school with 137 wins in his 11 seasons.

Nolan Richardson is credited with bringing the Tulsa program to national prominence when hired in 1980, and he led the school to the 1981 NIT Championship and had a .763 winning percentage at the school. He became the first coach in NCAA history to win 50 games in his first two seasons.[2]

In the 1990s and 2000s, a succession of Tulsa coaches went on to big name programs across the country, including Tubby Smith, Buzz Peterson, and Bill Self. The team remained successful throughout the string of coaches.

Notable assistants in the program’s history have included Billy Gillispie, Flip Saunders, Kevin O’Neill, Tom Izzo, Mike Anderson, and Ron Jirsa.

[PonyDoh]

one BIG difference between SMU and Tulsa hoops is the level of fan support the programs enjoy. Granted, Tulsa doesn't have major league sports to compete with, but even in their down years, they've enjoyed respectable crowds and that does make a difference in recruiting the mid-tier kid

This can't be said strongly enough. Regardless of product, playing half road games and half neutral court games makes things tough. Cue Mr Pony telling me of the greatness that is Moody. Great venue, yes. Great home court, rarely.

[RGV Pony]

and not only does Tulsa have good fan support, so does ORU on the other side of town.

[Pony_Fan]

Tulsa's fan support isn't even close to what it was even a few years ago in their building...but much better than ours. I think they get around 4k. Not much entertainment choices in Tulsa. Mavs probably kill us here.

[papawasamustang]

And Tulsa has a great history of choosing Coaches as well...including the brothers there now from Michigan State..

Clarence Iba, brother of Henry Iba, helped to springboard Tulsa to success when named the head coach in 1949. He coached at the school for 11 years, the longest tenure of any Tulsa coach, and is the all-time winningest coach at the school with 137 wins in his 11 seasons.

Nolan Richardson is credited with bringing the Tulsa program to national prominence when hired in 1980, and he led the school to the 1981 NIT Championship and had a .763 winning percentage at the school. He became the first coach in NCAA history to win 50 games in his first two seasons.[2]

In the 1990s and 2000s, a succession of Tulsa coaches went on to big name programs across the country, including Tubby Smith, Buzz Peterson, and Bill Self. The team remained successful throughout the string of coaches.

Wow! Their AD's have done an outstanding job with their
HC hires. Also, I've always thought that if u put an entertaining/winning
product on the court the fan support will be there.




Notable assistants in the program’s history have included Billy Gillispie, Flip Saunders, Kevin O’Neill, Tom Izzo, Mike Anderson, and Ron Jirsa.

[lwjr]

I agree, and yes I think there are defn. racial undertones to SMU recruiting...it defn hurts us

I think a Butler is a great example of what we can become...

Also, you would think Adidas would want a bigger presence in a major city like Dallas...you would think they would want SMU to suceed...

All this shoe/AAU talk kind of makes me sick, it is incredible that they wield so much power

Here's the thing, they drive the global growth of the sport and basketball is a lifestyle brand. The NFL is far more popular then the NBA, but NBA players make far more in endorsement dollars. Having icons to push the brand moves product, and consumers buy way more hoop product then football. They sponsor college programs, in many cases, paying the coach more then the university. They are the games largest advertiser, which drives up TV deals and puts more money in the NCAAs pockets. They offset program costs from travel through apparel etc. They are basketball at this point, so either make friends or perish.

PonyDoh,
WOW, this is incredible information. So, one of your points is, even though a university is paying the BBall coach, like a coach K, he might be making six figures from a shoe company as well? Next point, if you want to recruit the best kids to your school you need to really get to know the HS coaches, the club coaches and the shoe people. Am I understanding that correctly?

[PonyDoh]

I agree, and yes I think there are defn. racial undertones to SMU recruiting...it defn hurts us

I think a Butler is a great example of what we can become...

Also, you would think Adidas would want a bigger presence in a major city like Dallas...you would think they would want SMU to suceed...

All this shoe/AAU talk kind of makes me sick, it is incredible that they wield so much power

Here's the thing, they drive the global growth of the sport and basketball is a lifestyle brand. The NFL is far more popular then the NBA, but NBA players make far more in endorsement dollars. Having icons to push the brand moves product, and consumers buy way more hoop product then football. They sponsor college programs, in many cases, paying the coach more then the university. They are the games largest advertiser, which drives up TV deals and puts more money in the NCAAs pockets. They offset program costs from travel through apparel etc. They are basketball at this point, so either make friends or perish.

PonyDoh,
WOW, this is incredible information. So, one of your points is, even though a university is paying the BBall coach, like a coach K, he might be making six figures from a shoe company as well? Next point, if you want to recruit the best kids to your school you need to really get to know the HS coaches, the club coaches and the shoe people. Am I understanding that correctly?

LOL, I can't tell if you're being serious or yanking my chain, but here goes anyway. No doubt that coaches can make as much in endorsement deals, and all that entails, as they do coaching for the school. Heck,in many cases, coaches end up paying their profile assistants extra, through the apparel deals, so they aren't sniped by other programs. These companies pay for them to attend clinics, speaking engagements, have their own camps etc.

To your second question, high school coaches are the least influential. Club & shoe folks tend to rule the roost, particularly at the highest level. It's not just about knowing these people, it's about having a real tangible working relationship, which some time walks a very blurry line. Kids spend way more time on the travel circuit then they do playing high school basketball. It's April-July, every single weekend, and requires extensive travel. In most cases, apparel companies sponsor the tourneys and/or teams. Also, look at the major recruiting services and check when they update their player rankings. They place little to no emphasis on high school ball. They update in April, after high school ball, and end of summer, after AAU. The reality is that you can average 35pts per in the Texas high school playoffs, but if you stink come Great American Shoot-out, you'll see very little bump. OTOH, you can average 10pts per in high school, but have a great Real Deal in the Rock, and get high major offers, see a kid like Jordan Green.

People make the mistake of thinking hoops is easier to turn around then football, mostly b/c you only need a few players. The reality is that getting those players is so much more difficult in hoops b/c it's highly political, and it's not just about showing the kid love. So many more influences in the decision process...

[lwjr]

I agree, and yes I think there are defn. racial undertones to SMU recruiting...it defn hurts us

I think a Butler is a great example of what we can become...

Also, you would think Adidas would want a bigger presence in a major city like Dallas...you would think they would want SMU to suceed...

All this shoe/AAU talk kind of makes me sick, it is incredible that they wield so much power

Here's the thing, they drive the global growth of the sport and basketball is a lifestyle brand. The NFL is far more popular then the NBA, but NBA players make far more in endorsement dollars. Having icons to push the brand moves product, and consumers buy way more hoop product then football. They sponsor college programs, in many cases, paying the coach more then the university. They are the games largest advertiser, which drives up TV deals and puts more money in the NCAAs pockets. They offset program costs from travel through apparel etc. They are basketball at this point, so either make friends or perish.

PonyDoh,
WOW, this is incredible information. So, one of your points is, even though a university is paying the BBall coach, like a coach K, he might be making six figures from a shoe company as well? Next point, if you want to recruit the best kids to your school you need to really get to know the HS coaches, the club coaches and the shoe people. Am I understanding that correctly?

Your comments about Orsini make a little more sense to me. I think you were not dumping on him only that he does not understand the college hoop scene as much as he needs to. That is why you were suggesting for SMU's next coach search, he would be better off hiring a firm to aid in the process.