The point on Attendance

[Original Frank]

Many of you are missing the point in regard to attendance. It is a simple cause and effect. Winning comes first, it is the cause. Attendance is a result, it is the effect of winning, the effect of success on the court.

To cite examples, how many of you knowingly go to a movie that you know is bad? How many bad restaurants have good attendance? How was the Mavericks attendance when they sucked? Is there truly a compelling reason for area fans to attend SMU bball games? I suggest there is not. Win, enjoy some success, get some front page coverage, then let's see about attendance. It is clear that any semblance of success creates a pretty nice atmosphere in Moody. Success is the key, let's not allow ourselves to lose sight of this fact!

Frankly, SMU's attendance is right where it should be given the success of the program over the last several always disappointing years. I can personally cite ten big games with great attendance. Games were usually close, but we always lost in the end. All the Fresno games. Tulsa. Good grief, how many home TCU games with a full house have we lost? Tech. Hawaii last year. Rice in '97 and '98. Disappointing losses all! The list goes on and on. We will only see an increase in attendance when the performance on the court warrants same.

Same with football. Achieve some semblance of success and then we can moan about attendance. Good grief, let's have our first important football game in November before attendance becomes an issue.

As I have stated, the program is now static with Dement at the controls. I have no doubt he is a great guy, but he is leading this tteam to the same mediocrity as he has for seven years now. Mid WAC finish, first round tourney loss, no post season. To quote Bill Bennett, where is the outrage?

[Charleston Pony]

Nobody disputes the point that a winning program or attractive games with big time opponents are good for attendance, but I'm afraid you are the one missing the point. The POINT is that SMU has a weak following, and that's why we are where we are today (mid major, looking for a comfortable place we can call home, rejected by our former peers, etc...) I've been following SMU sports since the time the Dallas Coboys were born and since that time, SMU's attendance HAS suffered. We get excited these days when we can pack Ford Stadium, and that's only 32,000 seats. Want proof winning doesn't solve the problem? Talk to anyone who played on those Top 10-20 teams SMU fielded in the 80's and ask them if they remember playing in front of packed houses at Texas Stadium or the Cotton Bowl. Take a look at our media guide and you will see that with FEW exceptions, it took a visiting Texas or A&M to pack those venues. Why? It's because SMU has a VERY SMALL contingent of hard core, loyal fans and it's been that way for a long, long time.

When I was at SMU ('70-'74), we packed Moody (capacity was about 10,000 back then) for "big games", but it was rare to see the place sold out. We rarely sold out during the peak of the Dave Bliss years when we were winning SWC Championships and playing in meaningful post-season games.

Look around the world of college basketball. There are PLENTY of places that regularly pack their arenas (with capacity similar to Moody) for teams that are by no means Top 25 material.

My whole point in this "attendance thing" is that I have no doubt we would have much stronger programs if we had a larger and more loyal fan base. I personally love Ford Stadium and think it's the perfect size for SMU. I wouldn't mind a remodeled Moody seating only 7,500. There's no reason why even a school our size (with reportedly approx 30,000 living alumni in the DFW area) shouldn't be able to pack Ford and Moody for most games. A "weak" game should be 4,000 in Moody and 20,000 in Ford.

Thinking that winning will solve this problem is missing the entire point of my constant ranting and raving on this subject. The current student body apathy towards athletics simply guarantees this problem will continue for years to come. Too many SMU student are spoiled "silver spooners" who will only support a Top 25 program. I have plenty of former classmates I could point to as proof. Hard core sports fans (like most of us on this board) will show up to support even a losing program (Lord knows we have for years), but I will guarantee you our coaches will tell you it would be MUCH easier to sell SMU to recruits if they could bring them in and show them an electric atmosphere on game day. That comes from having a large contingent of loyal, hard core fans and we simply don't have that. It starts with the students & alumni and it's just not happening.

[SoCal_Pony]

On SMU’s own website, under Men’s Basketball, ‘Stats/History’, it shows that our average home attendance during our last conference championship season was only 3,416.

We were 20-8 that year, including 13-1 at home. This was Shumate’s ’92-’93 team and we were SWC Champions. That means our conference opponents were UT and Tech, not Nevada and San Jose St.

Our 12,000 core football fans are some of the most loyal in the country. They have clearly demonstrated that losing football games will not affect their attendance. I wish SMU would do a better job of getting more of these loyal fans to the basketball games.

[Pony_Fan]

I agree that winning will definitely help but I also was at the 80's games when we were in the top 10 and we could not pack Texas Stadium. The student/alum apathy is rampant amongst the school for fball and basketball. I wonder how many non-SMU fans actually go to games...I doubt many at all. For whatever reason, SMU has no real spirit...I don't know why it is but it doesn't help when you have Cowboys, Mavs, Stars, Burn, Rangers, etc. TCU has attend problems of their own.

Some new blood will give some change and new life to the program and maybe get us on the right track and the fan base will develop more than it is now. We will never pack Moody by ourselves...only if we play Tech, Texas, OU, etc.

Moody definitely needs a new scoreboard, updated restrooms, bigger hallways, etc. Even with luxury suites, I doubt people would attend a game...they may buy the seats but they won't attend games. It reallyl frustrates me that I can't sit in the blue seats when I go to every home game..granted, I am not going to shell out $250 for seasons.

[Original Frank]

With all due respect, I do not agree. In the '80s, Smu played beofre 35,000 to 45,000 at most non-A&M/UT games in a 65,000 seat tTexas Stadium. I submit that the 35,000 or so is a great crowd for a small private school in a large metropolitan area with an enrollment of 6,000. That is an attendance of almost 6 times enrollmemnt. If UT or A&M drew 6 times their enrollments, they would need stadiums of over 200,000.

The problem during the winning years of the '80s was our playing in too large of a stadium so that even our good crowds of 35,000 to 45,000 looked disappointing. A half filled stadium creates a poor atmosphere, period. Texas Stadium was much too big when we drew 35,000 against TCU or Rice. However, we would all now be delighted with such figures at Ford. The problem, lack of success on the playing field.

In regard to bball, I'm going tonight as I usually do. But it is because I have nothing compelling to do otherwise. I am not excited to spend another frustrating night watching Dement's program. I have seen that movie before.

Success on the playing field will spawn success at the turnstiles, if we are objective enough to avoid comparisons to those public institutions who are 6 or 7 times as large as are we.

[Charleston Pony]

SMU and TCU have the same problem, being small private (exclusive) schools that the average Joe has a hard time identifying with. I agree there are probably very few people who did not attend SMU who are among our most ardent supporters. UT, on the other hand, has legions of fans who never sniffed the campus but pull for the Horns as if they were graduates. That's a FACT we can't change, BUT...I've always felt SMU could do a better job reaching out to the community.

I like the fact that Bennett is determined to recruit more locally. When Dave Bliss came in here, he made a point of saying we could be a Top 20 program if we could just get one of the top kids from DFW area schools every year. That also helps you build a local following...that kid's friends and family.

Instead of having our teams play in front of empty seats, I wish we'd make a push to get youth groups out. Make it attractive enough that they will want to come out to see SMU play Tulsa in football or San Jose in hoops. Offer birthday party deals with packages including hot dogs, drinks and game tickets at very low cost. I'm talking about $3 per seat for groups of 25 or more...something ridiculously cheap...or you can have packages costing more and including a t-shirt for all and maybe a football signed by the team for the birthday child...just to get people in the seats and perhaps begin to build a fan base. How about a "free" day for DISD school kids, if accompanied by a paying adult? Why not that same kind of deal for Church youth groups? Do we still even have Methodist Youth Group days like we once had in the Cotton Bowl?

As a kid growing up in Dallas, I followed Texas because they were good. I followed SMU because they were local. My family had absolutely no history with SMU and we never attended a game. In fact, the 1st SMU game I ever attended was opening day my Frosh year. On the other hand, my father did take advantage of the Dallas Cowboys attempts to gain fans to watch an absolutely horrible NFL expansion team when he could go sit in the end zone of the Cotton Bowl and bring 5 school age kids...all for only $5.

With DART able to bring anybody in Dallas to our campus, we should be making a better effort to reach out to the community for support. Doesn't a ticket to one of our games entitle the ticket holder to ride DART free that day?

[PX]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Original Frank:
<B>With all due respect, I do not agree. In the '80s, Smu played beofre 35,000 to 45,000 at most non-A&M/UT games in a 65,000 seat tTexas Stadium. .</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, but thats not true. Just to make sure I looked up the attendance numbers from 1980-86, and the games under 35,000 far outnumbered the games over. Rice, Houston, Texas Tech, and UTEP never drew that many people. The real surprise was that Arkansas drew smaller crowds 3 times in those years. After UT and A&M, TCU was the biggest draw, followed by Baylor, but even Baylor didnt draw over 35,000 consistently.

[OldPony]

CP is right. We will never have a solid fan base until we connect with Dallas. I find it hard to believe that with the number of transplants to Dallas that we can't become their new hometown team and that with the right efforts become the place to go watch college basketball in Dallas for Dallas kids if we recruit from Dallas. Both Bennett and Dement have made great strides in that area but without winning, the casual fans won't show. Hell, when we played San Diego, one of the Dallas boys who played for SD had a ton of friends show up. On the radio it sounded like there were more of them than SMU fans. I get tired of the old excuse that there is just too much to do in Dallas. Dallas is a good city but so are a dozen others that have as much or more to do. Excuses are like noses. There are good small school programs all over the place from whistle stops to big cities that draw good crowds (or better than 2000 anyway). SMU must find the way to reach out and make those people feel welcome and enjoy the events. Where are those crowds who watched BHop when he was playing HS? How about tailgate basketball in the lot south of Moody with a lot of day games. Why not? Maybe tie concerts with local bands who are hot in the community with games. I don't know what will work but what we are doing isn't and crying about it doesn't help. Winning would help too but with Dement, that seems to be out of the question and the Admin doesn't care. Peace and love to all 2000 SMU fans.

[Ponymon]

The Ponies should get with the YMCA and have an Indian guide night and an Indian Princess night. My kids tribe has gone in force for the last 3 years to see the Dallas Burn. I think the Dallas Burn will attest to the fact that these Indian Guide nights have SIZEABLE crowds. I know several fathers, who are soccer nuts, that now regularly go to their games. It would not only get the kids interested in following the school (and purchasing Mustang stuff), it also would give non SMU people a chance to see the less pricey alternatives for their family to the local pro choices.

[boulevard bum]

This is for Charleston Pony.

A couple of things...Ok I think you understand that SMU will never be the home team for everyone in Dallas. There are too many grads from other schools and the Cowboys are most definately the home football team. In Austin the Longhorns are their pro team. Almost everyone that lives in Austin either went to a small college without school spirit, UT, or never went to college. I have experience with this because I have a lot of family in Austin and none of them went to UT but they cry(literally) when the longhorns loose. The UT longhorns should be more correctly called the Austin Longhorns. Being a private school is at a major disadvantage in the war on Statewide support. But like I said you seem to understand that. I do think that many people in Dallas would rally around a good SMU team even if they didn't go there. Winning is everything. Yes we were good in the 80's and were consistently good for around a decade. But UT has been good forever. Let's take Notre Dame for example. They may be the most successful football program in the history of college football but they are private. WHY? Because they won and they won a lot. If you want more of a following you have to win. Also, on your comment regarding SMU getting kids groups to come to the games...they did this year at least at the SJSU game...the FCA(fellowship of christian athletes) brought around 3,000 kids from the Dallas area. I personnaly think they have no business being there but maybe it will help us out. Any exposure is good exposure. That's all.

[Fresh]

From PX:

"I'm sorry, but thats not true. Just to make sure I looked up the attendance numbers from 1980-86, and the games under 35,000 far outnumbered the games over. Rice, Houston, Texas Tech, and UTEP never drew that many people. The real surprise was that Arkansas drew smaller crowds 3 times in those years. After UT and A&M, TCU was the biggest draw, followed by Baylor, but even Baylor didnt draw over 35,000 consistently."

Are those the same "official" SMU-released numbers that you always decry as inaccurate? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself. Either the official SMU numbers are accurate or they're not. Can't be both, as I see it.

[PX]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fresh:
<B>From PX:

"I'm sorry, but thats not true. Just to make sure I looked up the attendance numbers from 1980-86, and the games under 35,000 far outnumbered the games over. Rice, Houston, Texas Tech, and UTEP never drew that many people. The real surprise was that Arkansas drew smaller crowds 3 times in those years. After UT and A&M, TCU was the biggest draw, followed by Baylor, but even Baylor didnt draw over 35,000 consistently."

Are those the same "official" SMU-released numbers that you always decry as inaccurate? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself. Either the official SMU numbers are accurate or they're not. Can't be both, as I see it.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I began criticizing our official attendance numbers as often seriously overstated about 4 years ago. Since there is no one currently in our athletic administration who was here in the 80's, only a simpleton would try to connect todays figures to the those from 20 years ago, or any other time period, under some kind of blanket grandfather arrangement. Criticizing something inaccurate today does not say anything about the attendance numbers from the 80's. Its not an all or nothing situation. Doing something inaccurately now does not automatically invalidate every number that SMU has ever reported, and only someone with a screw loose would try to claim that it did, without evidence.
If you disagree with the numbers I'm using, which I did indeed find in SMU's media guide, thats fine. If you have stats you feel are more accurate, I'll be happy to listen. Were you ever actually at any of the games in question?
Either way, it doesnt make much difference. If you feel the attendance numbers from 1980-1986 were as exaggerated as they are these days, that only further demonstrates my point that we drew less than 35k on most occasions.

[EastStang]

I agree with most of the posts. The difference as far as Notre Dame is concerned is religion and ethnicity. Having the name Fighting Irish creates a loyal following among our green friends. Further, all of the national CYO's and Catholic schools are feeder schools to Notre Dame. If ND wants a kid, his priest gets a call. Unfortunately for us protestants, we can't threaten ex-communication with a straight face if a Methodist kid goes to UT.

[crazy horse]

My first few years in business were spent promoting motion pictures in the DFW area. I worked with every studio except Paramount. I learned one very important lesson duirng this experience. No matter how much money is spent on a bad movie, people will not show up and word of mouth will destroy the film's chances of building any audience.

Now apply that to SMU. For the last 14 years, the product has been bad. As a loyal mustang and season ticket holder for many years, I hate to say that. Add to that fact, the conference instability and lack of interesting opponents, you have a serious challenge.

But the challenge can be overcome. I thoroughly disagree that Dallas will not embrace good entertainment. Dallas likes winners and likes being connected to something "hot". There are 5 million people in the DFW area. Are you telling me we can't find 1/2% of the area population to come out and watch a college football game? Its an incredible value and could be a fun way to spend a Saturday afternoon. Surely there are 100,000 college football fans in Dallas that might occasionally come out to see a game. I know there are, I've met them in the stands and brought them myself. They usually showed up by accident or as a guest.

Here's my short list of what to do:

1. Improve the product. And yes college football is a product. The level of play, the "experience", price, food, ease of parking, friendliness of the fans/vendors, all go into the overall experience.
2. Get the students/faculty/alumni/SMU family committed to showing up (and staying).
3. Do some decent marketing to the Dallas community. Reach out to college football fans and opponent alumni in area.
4. Get back to some solid grassroot marketing targeting Schools (ie Band Day), FCA, Youth sports etc.
5. Reconnect with the Methodist Church - DFW (and Texas)has a large concentration of Churches, most of which with SMU grads in the pulpit. I became a Mustang as the result of a UMYF trip to see SMU in the cotton Bowl. We drove a busload of 100 people from Longview to attend the game. Do we even promote this anymore? Notre Dame has the Catholics, BYU the Mormons, Why can't SMU develop this with the Methodist Church?

I am tired of hearing excuses of why we can't fill the stands. It can be done. It will take some effort.

[PonyTales]

BYU's student body (and alumni base) is largely Mormon. Notre Dame has a lot of Catholics. I think the SMU community is far more diverse.

The Band Day idea is a gold mine. Invite area HS bands, maybe 2 or 3 at a time, to rehearse during the week with the Mustang Band and then perform a couple of numbers Saturday with the band. These kids will bring their whole families to the game - band members get in free, family and friends buy tickets. Bring them back enough times and they'll develop an allegiance to the Ponies. They also will see the amazing campus and facilities, and some will end up wanting to come to SMU in part to play in the band. Which would be nice, to get the numbers up. It's always a little hollow when the visitors trot out a band of 300 and we float 45 or whatever our total is. Sounds a little thin in Ford Stadium.