Our friend Tubbs article

[Stampede]

Trust me, OP. I have followed this longer than PX and he is exactoy right. Shumate did not recruit, or care to recruit locally. Did not give the high school coaches the time of day and it cost him dearly. Once Dement arrived, Tubbs was turned loose and the "fence mending" was underway. Tubbs is an excellent coach, recruiter and people person. Players respond and respect Tubbs, period. End of sentence!!!

[NCPony]

I always heard that Larry Johnson wanted to come to SMU- was Shumate the reason he didn't? Or was it grades? Or just a bad rumor?

[Stallion]

no that would be Ken Pye's fault.

[PX]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by NCPony:
<B>I always heard that Larry Johnson wanted to come to SMU- was Shumate the reason he didn't? Or was it grades? Or just a bad rumor?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Larry Johnson committed to SMU, but didnt have an NCAA minimum qualifying test score. He took the test again and got a qualifying score, but there was a such a large improvement in scores between the 2 tests it was questioned by both the SMU (Pye) administration, and the testing service. He was asked to take the test again, but refused and went to a junior college, instead. From there he transferred to UNLV. We also lost Damon Sweet from that recruiting class after he had committed to us. Sweet went on to play at Notre Dame, not as famous as Johnson, but a very good college player. This actually occurred while Dave Bliss was head coach, not Shumate.

[Stallion]

It is my understanding SMU initiated the question into the SAT score under the brand new leadership of Ken Pye who set academic standards which Larry Johnson did not meet. The only thing ever mentioned as a reason that SMU questioned the score is because Larry Johnson did much better on the second test. I've never heard a reasonable explanation or any factual investigation of why SMU had any reason to question that score other than the improvement and I don't believe the NCAA or the testing service ever made a finding of irregularity. SMU under Pye simply asked him to take the SAT again and Johnson basically told Pye and SMU to kiss my [deleted]. I don't think that Johnson ever challenged the hold placed on the score so it was thrown out-but I don't think there was ever a finding of irregularity. This was an issue that took several months to resolve well after the initial signing date and I'm not sure there was time for Johnson to retake the SAT. Obviously, the fact that SMU, the school where he had already committed, questioned the score without any real evidence of irregularity PISSED the Johnson family off. It was similar to a slap in the face to one of the prized recruits in the nation saying "You are too stupid to score that high" And I believe it PISSED Dave Bliss off too who decided to get the heck out of Dodge as soon as saw what was happening. In short, that SAT score would have gotten Johnson into SMU had it not been held up by questions raised by SMU simply because of the improvement.

[This message has been edited by Stallion (edited 03-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Stallion (edited 03-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Stallion (edited 03-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Stallion (edited 03-19-2003).]

[mulletmike]

Stallion, Its clear to me that you don't understand my individual stance on Dement or the program in general. I've never once raved that Dement was an amazing recruiter. He's hit and miss and most of the misses have been impact big men. Its been program crippling.

The adminsitrative restrictions on recruiting have been a self-imposed torture. I appreciate what it takes to recruit to SMU. I don't regard it as a plausible excuse for mediocrity when many loaded conferences require full qualifying to participate. It just takes having a 'vibe' around the program and that starts w/the head guy and a few facility upgrades.

About Dement, my point is that he's not good enough a recruiter to overcome his teams undisciplined style. You can't yield medicore to good talent and play like its pick-up. Either load up on talent and gun, or get the best out of what you've got. Better yet, combine talent and discipline. Unfortunately, Dement guns w/average talent and thats a recipe for perennial medicrioity.This doesn't even touch our inability to defend the perimeter or in transition.

My belief is that we've had enough talent to win this league in the past 7 years. We would have needed some breaks, but the talent wasn't what held us back. It was ineffective play in clutch games, the by product of undisciplined basketball.

Maybe its chemistry? How many Dement led teams had a cohesive group of guys in the lockeroom? How many selfless players content playing a role in the program? True hustlers?

Its not the talent, its the brand of basketball I find objectionable and sometimes offensive. Its a completly stagnant program.

A buy-out, a profile hire and facility upgrades is what it takes. The price of being competitive. Coach Dement has done a nice job, but he's not taking us any further and every Mustang fan knows that.

[DiamondM]

I would think that Larry Johnson not getting minimum qualifying SAT scores was pretty much Larry Johnson's fault, not Ken Pye's. And with what went down with him and his other UNLV buddies later, I am a little bit suspect of the radical improvement, and think Ken Pye had a right to be as well.

Stallion you can continue to bang the drum, and I am not going to argue with you again on the global picture who/what is responsible for the last 15 years, but I don't think Ken Pye was the only one questioning Johnson's academic credentials.

[PX]

Most of that is fairly accurate, the score was challenged because of magnitude of change between first and second testing. Pye had just mandated his new standards and was looking for a high profile test case. He wanted to make an example of someone, and Johnson was it. As I mentioned, Damon Sweet had also committed to us, but had to be released because he hadnt taken the SAT yet. He got a good score without any problem, but he also was averaging about 30 points a game his senior year and by the time he had his test score he was being recruited by dozens of schools, and he never gave SMU another look.

[Scoops]

I remember reading that when Johnson was a senior at Skyline, there was a sophomore in high school in San Antonio who said he wanted to go to SMU to play with him. That sophomore was named Shaquille O'Neal.

Think things would be a little different today if those two had somehow ended up at SMU?

[Stallion]

well then you share the same viewpoint as Pye-guilty until proven innocent. Why you're at it do you have any evidence to start slinging mud at Larry Johnson-point me to one shread of evidence that SMU or Johnson was ever accused of academic fraud in that case other than an increase in his test score. I don't believe any evidence of that nature has ever been published. That's how our program got driven into the ground. People like you criticize me but I don't hear a single person on this board advocating reimposing the ridiculous asinine restrictions he put in place. In fact, now many of you applaud what I was saying on these boards over 5 years ago. The fact is that Ken Pye made it impossible for this program to succeed and therefore he deserves the blame for the destruction he caused.

[PX]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Scoops:
<B>I remember reading that when Johnson was a senior at Skyline, there was a sophomore in high school in San Antonio who said he wanted to go to SMU to play with him. That sophomore was named Shaquille O'Neal.

Think things would be a little different today if those two had somehow ended up at SMU?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are really, really stretching things, Scoop. Unless you can show me the article you are talking about, I just cant buy it. I remember an article in the DMN a few years ago that speculated about what might have happened if LJ had come here, would recrtuits like Thomas Hill and possibly Shaquille O'Neal have followed to play with him, but it was all conjecture. There was nothing backing it up, it was just the writer speculating.

I had a talk with Shaq right after he finished high school (and meeting Shaq for the first time is a pretty funny story by itself) and he told me then that he had always leaned toward LSU. Dale Brown had started recruiting him when he was in 8th grade, and his family was living overseas in Germany. Brown was the first coach to talk to him, and LSU was always his first choice.

Oh, and I should mention this, as well. Shaq didnt live in San Antonio until he was a junior in high school. His father was in the army and stationed at a base overseas. I have a hard time believing that a kid in Germany would even have heard of SMU or Larry Johnson, much less go around telling reporters that he wanted to come here to play with him. Perhaps it was some other sophomore at San Antonio Cole that provided that quote.

[Stallion]

...I thought I did read once that Thomas Hill indicated in a newspaper article that he had real interest in SMU as a junior until the Johnson/Sweat fiasco and the departure of Bliss. I don't think we ever had a shot at Shaq

[PX]

During the Final Four Hill's senior year at Duke a reporter referred to Texas as a basketball "wasteland" and expressed surprise that not only Hill, but 2 of the starters for Michigans Fab Five and one of the bets players for Ohio State were all from Texas, originally. Hill tried to defend Texas, telling the reporter that the state produced several good players, but they all left to go to college in other states. During the interview Hill mentioned the in-state schools he had considered attending, and SMU was one of them.

[PonyTime]

When a player (LJ) posts a 3 on the ACT and a 480 on the SAT, and then posts a 900+ on the SAT in a later test - the ETS (Educational Testing Service) will call the score into question.

Putting one's name on the test will get you a 400 score, thus a 480 is basically reachable by a 2nd grader.

I think LJ was possibly illiterate. And I sincerely doubt that he inproved his SAT by 400+ points.

Someone else took the second test and EVERYONE knew it, including Pye, the ETS, Bliss, etc.

[OldPony]

This is interesting. Do you think we still have a chance to get Shaq or LJ?