Give another chance argument

[Waz]

For those of you that feel Dement hasn't had enough time to put together a winner, or that the cause of that is not ineptitude, but University regulations, check out Dayton's ex-coach, Oliver Purnell. Last time I checked, Dayton was a pretty strong school academically, located in a so-so town. With some wildly unbelievable luck by Purnell, he was able to take a progam that won 17 games in the four years prior to his arrival (think our program was in bad shape with Shu?) and post a pretty good 155-116 record in the 7 years that he was there. A-10 isn't a bad league is it? Won that championship, went to the NCAA"s twice and NIT three times. Astoundingly he was lucky enough to win 20 games in 5 of the last 6 seasons, despite the road blocks that the university placed in his way.

Lets give Dement a contract extension so that we are absolutley positive that he has had enough time to prove that he is a mediocre coach at best.

[Stallion]

Dayton's MVP for the last two years is a kid that HAD to go to Prep School for academic reasons out of High School. Their Defensive Player of The Year is a JC Transfer. Another top player off the bench was a JC transfer. One of their top starters from a year ago was a non-qualifier out of HS. I'm sure they may have others with academic resumes that Dement can't touch too. Just setting the record straight.

[This message has been edited by Stallion (edited 04-10-2003).]

[Charleston Pony]

and he'll have no barriers to recruiting "athlete-students" at Clemson, with such majors as "Parks & Recreation" to offer. It's a different world in the public sector, people.

[Waz]

Speaking of straightening records, Stalley may have been the D player of the year for them, although I did not see that anywhere. However, he was the sixth leading scorer at 7/game, snagged a little over three caroms/game and managed a whopping < 19min/game. Their other significant JC off the bench had stats like MD Jr.

Not prep school to raise grades prior to College! Please not that! Surley only the lowest of meatheads would stoop so low as to attend a prep school (key word: preparation, to prepare for college). Can you imagine what would happen if West Point, Air Force and Navy ever admitted kids from prep school? Oh, I forgot, THEY HAVE THEIR OWN! And the Ivies, my goodness, they wouldn't be caught dead having a kid from Preparation School attend. Why, I will bet that a couple of those rascals from Preparation School may have even slid past the keen eyes of our Admissions staff and embedded themselves within the SMU student body. Lets hunt them down and remove them before anyone finds out that Preparation School students are diluting our academics.

Stallion, I enjoy your posts and most have good information, but you are fixated on this issue of recruitment barriers. Please point me to the person or coach or department that has decreed, "SMU shall not recruit JUCO's". Not all JUCO's are idiots. Some do have academic credentials. It is not quite a mutually exclusive set. When you come through on this one, I will sing your praises and attempt to raise you up to the most exhaulted recruiting guru status, with a minor in understanding what constitutes a good coach, that you most certainly aspire to.

[Stallion]

because I've followed SMU Athletics since the DP and I'm not gullible and naive like the rest of you asking me that question. The only JCs that get into SMU are the ones who didn't belong in JC academically in the first place like Page and Pharris. Look SMU has not shown up on a recruiting database as a school a JC was interested since they were invented-We are talking about several hundreds of players-not one of which is interested in SMU even though SMU's coaches have better JC connections than any staff in the Nation. I don't have to be told information by the President of the Mustang Club before I draw conclusions. For those of you that don't know-let me spell it out to you-SMU DOES NOT ACTIVELY TARGET AND RECRUIT JUNIOR COLLEGE ATHLETES PERIOD.

[This message has been edited by Stallion (edited 04-11-2003).]

[OldPony]

Waz- We know you don't like Dement. Do you really think it is his fault (and Bennett's) for not signing ANY JUCO's? Did they decide that they didn't want to dabble in this pool of athletes? Get a grip old man.

[Waz]

My point, read Oliver Purnell, is that YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RELY on JUCO's to have a successful program. I have stated and freely admit that it would be easier to have the advantage of unlimited access to JC's, but that is not the only way to get there. The WAC is not so powerful and SMU/Dallas such a dreadful place that our only recourse to success is to lower the academic standards. That argument is a short crutch at best.

Liking or not liking Mike Dement is not the issue. Do I think that he has done all that he could with the opportunities that are available, including the talent he has on the team? No. Do I think that given the same opportunities that Dement has been given and currently has, another, more talented coach could produce better results? Yes.

SMU is only going to go so far to support athletics. We all know that. For us to be successful, we need the most talented coaches that are available/affordable. I don't happen to think that Dement fits that category any longer and I don't think that not being able to consistently land JUCO recruits is what removes him from that category. I have stated and continue to feel that his total coaching package is mediocre at best. If there are some that feel that he is above that level and has taken this program to its highest level, you are currently seeing the best that SMU basketball will ever be, so sit back and enjoy.

OP, you have stated next year is a critical year. With all the inequities that you feel SMU has to overcome, what makes next year a critical year? Why, given our dire recruiting circumstances, won't a 16 win, 3/4 finish in the league and no postseason bid be ok? I feel that the last three years have been critical to move us up a slot. It hasn't happened and I don't and continue not to see any evidence that we will advance with the current coach in place.

I'm not old and I am not crazy. We can do better with a different coach.

[OldPony]

I am not firmly in the Dement camp. I think he gave away the store to get Sasser and didn't get back in charge until this year. He finally has his type of athlete in place and this year showed some cojones by benching BHop. This group played like a team for the last half of the year. This group is now mature enough to show us what Dement can do with solid talent (not top 15-20). If he can't perform with 4 starters (3 juniors and a talented sophomore), then he probably just can't do it.
I misunderstood your point. I thought you were using Dayton to show that Dement can't coach. Dayton has much less restrictive policies than SMU and Dement couldn't have qualified about 3 or 4 of the Dayton players.
I am not a JUCO fan. I believe that you build a program with 4 year players and only occasionally dip into the JUCO pile for help in a particulat position or to fill for an injury, academic casulty etc. If you build with 4 year players though, it just takes a lot longer. If we were TCU and had come off of 3 or four horrible years in a row, I would expect a coach to build a good team in 4-5 years. If you do it right through 4 year players though, it takes at least twice as long. Dement is getting as good as athletes we will get barring Model changes. He has rebuilt the Dallas recruiting connection. He runs a clean program. Players graduate. There are many things we can thanks him for. It is now time to produce wins and tourney appearances though. If he can't, it's coaching or the Model (as Stallion would claim). The model isn't going to change very much from this point(maybe we'll add a jock friendly major of some kind)so we have to try something. If we hire another coach who looks promising and he fails, then we can probably expect crummy teams until the Model is changed which may be never.

[BigEasyPony]

Perhaps, I am wrong, but didn't Dement know SMU's restrictive recruiting policies when he was hired eight (8) years ago. I'll bet he did. He accepted the SMU job with his eyes wide open. Over the last two (2) years SMU has relaxed a few of those restrictive policies and let's hope they continue to do so in order to level the playing field. However, Coach Dement knew what he was getting into (he was the HC at Cornell so he knows about high standards). If the standards were as high on the coaches as they apparently are on the recruits Dement would've been let go four (4) years ago.

[OldPony]

You mean its his fault for accepting a challenge? He should have known better than to come to SMU? Do you think Copeland might have told him the truth and part of that truth was that he would have time to build the program the right way.
What does Cornell have to do with anything? Cornell would be ecstatic to win 18 games a year against any competition. There is little pressure at Cornell to be top 25 in athletics of any kind.
It is fine for you to not like Dement but it is wrong to think he has been on a level field with the Billy Tubbs or Sharks of the world. Tulsa has a good basketball tradition and easier recruiting standards but you expect to beat them. Why?

[BigEasyPony]

As I've said before I actually like Coach Dement, but I don't like that we haven't made the NCAA's since he's been at the school. Not that is the only barometer of a good coach b/c I'd prefer Dement than Shumate and his NCAA appearance.

My point is that Dement knew the academic standards of SMU before he came and I think everyone can agree that Copeland has given him ample time (8 years) to build a program the right way and we're still a work in progress.

Cornell is only relevant in so far as Dement knows what's its like to recruit true student-athletes. I'm also not for a moment comparing SMU and Cornell b/c one cannot rationally do so.

Your final point is perhaps the one I disagree with you the most on. I do expect SMU to compete against TCU, Fresno St., Tulsa, Gonzaga, and Dayton's of the world b/c those are the teams we should be competeing with. If the schools with the most lax recruiting standards made it to the Final Four then the Cleveland State's of the world would have won a few championships. We will never be on a level playing field with Fresno St. or any program Billy Tubbs coaches. Does that mean we shut down the basketball program b/c we can never win? Does Stanford have higher standards than Oregon St., Washington St., Washington, or even UCLA? Absolutely! Do they compete with those schools? Very much so. It can be done and there are schools that do it on a consistent basis. Not many, but a few. Finally, should SMU make additional modifications to their recruiting policies? Yes, they already have and they should do more, but they should never lower their standards to the Tubbs and Sharks of the world.

[OldPony]

I agree about standards. I'm not sure that 8 years is enough at SMU but I have become impatient and think next year should be his last without marked improvement.
My point though is that Tulsa is a good school in a good town. SMU is a better school but I believe it is easier to recruit to Tulsa because they have better facilities and, most importantly, a good fan base and good support from the City. SMU may be in a better city overall but no one in Dallas cares about SMU except for about 20% of our own alums and about the same percent of current students. That is a hard sell for both Demnet and Bennett. At least Bennett can point to a proud heritage. The "win and they will come" crowd ignores history. With very good teams, we have have very few sellouts in our history. The ones we get are usually because a UofArk or a KU comes to town and brings 5-6000 of their fans. That being said, I believe Dement is now getting the best athletes HE can. If we want to be a top 25 club on a consistent basis, more than just the coach will have to change unless for some unknown and implausible resaon, a name coach who has a national following decides he wants the challenge of winning at a school which doesn't care.

[Charleston Pony]

Old Pony: I WISH 20% of our alumni and students cared about SMU hoops. It's been my understanding that we have almost 30,000 alumni in the DFW area, so if even 10% cared to suppor this program (and brought family and friends) we just might sell out Moody every game. Unfortunately, only a small fraction of our alumni support this program. Mustang Club membership is roughly 5% of our living alumni and that includes Mustangs all over the country. You are correct...Tulsa has a HUGE advantage over SMU in terms of fan support for their program, and they've had good sucess through the years. The question is: if SMU starts winning (and we are very close to being there), will anyone come out to support the team so we can SUSTAIN a program?

I'm skeptical because we didn't support a football program that was among the best in the country...at least not like other top programs do. That's one of the reasons I support a remodeling of Moody to add luxury boxes and club seating and reduce capacity to about 7500 if necessary to do so.

[OldPony]

What frustrates me is that Dallas alums can't turn out in big enough numbers to support a basketball team. I don't care if it is 8000 or 7500 with luxury boxes. I do hope that someday we can get the old alums who sit on their hands off the courtside. If luxury boxes would do that, I'm all for it.
I understand that 30000 Dallas alums can't fill up a Texas Stadium but to get just 4000 for a basketball game should be a no brainer. Add the 1000 students who sometimes show up and we would actually have a home court advantage. We know that the alums and students won't show up though so we must figure a way to connect to Dallas. Recruiting Dallas kids will help some.