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Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thread

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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby originaloverthehilltop1 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:50 pm

yeah. lets just ignore the fact that it is hard to sign top players who think they are a year from the nba while u are a non p5 program that is prohibited from post season play and/or under probation, with reduced scholarships to boot. that's all the fault of the assistant coach left behind to pick up the pieces. anything short of a top 20 finish is inexcusable.

having said that, somebody lay out the timetable and milestone improvements we should be looking for (and when) starting with exit of l brown and probation penalties and show when and how the improvement should manifest.

we need a timetable and evaluation schedule. anybody game? inquiring minds want to know.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby East Coast Mustang » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:36 pm

originaloverthehilltop1 wrote:yeah. lets just ignore the fact that it is hard to sign top players who think they are a year from the nba while u are a non p5 program that is prohibited from post season play and/or under probation, with reduced scholarships to boot. that's all the fault of the assistant coach left behind to pick up the pieces. anything short of a top 20 finish is inexcusable.

having said that, somebody lay out the timetable and milestone improvements we should be looking for (and when) starting with exit of l brown and probation penalties and show when and how the improvement should manifest.

we need a timetable and evaluation schedule. anybody game? inquiring minds want to know.

Let’s not act like any good recruits are going to care if a team has reduced scholarships; if anything, that sanction gives them a chance to get on the floor sooner. Also, Jank would have you believe that missing two scholarships per year is a death knell for a program, but most teams only go 8-9 deep anyways.

As for your timetable, well....

After 2016-17, Jank’s first class consisted of Landrum, Douglas, Ray, and Chargois. Safe to say there were some blown evals there. An absolute whiff of a class if not for Mike coming aboard as a transfer.

The 2017-18 season saw some highs (beating then #2 Arizona, blowing out USC and winning at Wichita) but the cracks were starting to show. We also lost games we should have won to UNI and WKU in Atlantis, lost to Tulane and Temple at home and got blown out by 20 at Cincy (sound familiar?). Then in the Wichita game Jarrey went down with the knee injury. Shake’s injury a few weeks later sealed that season’s fate. I’m largely willing to give Jank a pass for that season’s on court performance because we lost our two best players, but again some cracks were starting to show before they went down.

In the 2017-18 recruiting cycle, Jank signs Feron during the early signing period (good). Then, knowing that Jarrey will be rehabbing his second ACL injury all offseason and likely not back for the beginning of the regular season and that the team would need an infusion of talent, Jank goes and signs Jahmar Young and CJ White, both of which had extremely underwhelming offer lists and would not be expected to contribute in year one. He also signed Nat Dixon as a grad transfer — another blown eval. Overall, not a good class, especially given the circumstances.

The 2018-19 season sucked, to put it nicely. We started the season 2-3 with losses to Southern Miss, Lipscomb and Bradley and needed a last second shot to beat Wright State. We went 10-8 at home and got embarrassed in prison yard like fashion at Memphis and UCF.

The 2019 cycle brought us some pieces. Davis is a stud, Jolly is a player, and Smith is at least talented and had a good offer list — I think he could develop into something. Jasey looks...not great, Bandoumel is JAG and who knows about McNeill — he was a volume scorer on an awful Cal team. McBride was a really perplexing take at the time (very beginning of the cycle and his offer list was like Canisius and an Ivy); but whatever, Jank is good for at least one (and usually several) head-scratchers per class.

As for the on court product this year, well let’s see.....we got absolutely destroyed by Georgetown at home, lost games we should have won on the road to mediocre teams in Georgia and ECU, and eeked out a win over a pretty bad Vandy team (although they still had Nesmith at the time). Our OOC was one of the worst in the nation and you’ve gotta think Jank did that on purpose to save his job. As a result, we have no shot at an at-large bid in early February but after that Temple debacle on Saturday it’s not like this team is anywhere close to being tournament caliber. Davis has completely saved Jank’s bacon, if not for his waiver our record might be reversed right now. Defensively, we’re a mess and offensively it seems that we just try to out talent other teams rather than scheme up and take advantage of mismatches. I don’t know how anyone could watch this team and think it’s anywhere close to being well-coached.

In conclusion, Jank almost completely screwed up two recruiting cycles (2017 and 18) really set this thing ablaze. He will whine and moan about sanctions, but the real sanction was how bad of a job he did evaluating and recruiting in those two cycles. And I know for a fact that assistants have complained about the guys he’s elected to pursue and offer and others he’s passed on (Hello, Marcus Sasser!). He effectively took a 24 month vacation from recruiting...how is ANYONE okay with that level of effort from a guy making seven figures? We’re 16-6 now, if we’d played a half decent OOC like we should have, we’d probably be 13-9 or 12-10.

The real question is, what kind of program does David Miller want at SMU? If he’s content with NIT appearances and Jank-level recruiting, we should probably adjust our expectations (and spending habits) accordingly. The product on the court over the past three seasons sure as hell doesn’t line up with the ticket prices that resulted from the reseat. If David thinks SMU has to potential to be a top ten team (like we’ve been before in recent history) and competing for NCAA tournament berths year in and year out, and that’s what he wants to see, then Jank should be getting his walking papers in a few weeks.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby JasonB » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:34 am

To be fair, I think that year-by-year breakdown should include the visitation and travel limits that were placed on the program.

"In addition to the major penalties, others sanctions levied against SMU included: off-campus recruiting was cut by 20 days, along with a reduction in permissible phone calls and communications with recruits; the school will not be allowed any unofficial visits during the summer of 2016."

2015 - 2016 recruiting was trashed because we were holding scholarships back and the cloud of sanctions. LB was still here. You left this class out because LB was still here to make your point, but this is where the bad started. McDowell, Frolling, Wilson.

2016 - 2017 Douglas was a highly rated miss, that hurts. Ethan and Ray are good role players on a D1 team. Landrum was a reach and a miss. That isn't a bad class actually, considering the bad news around the program and the recruiting restrictions. It was actually a little better rated than the prior class, and was ranked 3 in the AAC.

2017-2018 - Average ranking goes up because of Hunt, but the class only tanks 6th in conference. White is developing into a very solid player. But both he and Young were projects at a time when we needed more. The GT was also a miss. This was a bad class, impacted by sanctions.

2018-2019 - Only ranked 6th in AAC, but looks like a much, much better class than that. Davis, Jolly, and McNeil should be good starting pieces. Smith has good potential. Jasey has limitations, but provides size and is a good rotation piece. Band is a good rotational piece who will be starting quality in the league with a good shot, athleticism and excellent defense. Cook and McBride are both projects.

So, I am going to argue that 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 are bad classes significantly impacted by sanctions and the LB churn. And are the reasons why we struggled the last two seasons. The 2017-2018 class was not good, and that should fully be on Jank, but he rebounded with a really nice class this past year.

Judge him by results and actual coaching mistakes (like the small ball issue last game). Don't get caught up in the hearsay, because at the end of the day, the end product is all that matters.

We have a PG brand new to the team, on a better trajectory than Nic. Here is the rotation next year:
Davis, Jolly, Band, Mike, Jasey
White, Smith, McNeil, Hunt, Ethan + Ray.

That is the best 11 player set in the league. Whatever you do, don't flush it down the toilet.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby EastStang » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:44 am

In the Temple game, clearly they did not know how to handle the pressure outside, nor how to make shots inside. Our bigs have this horrible habit of taking a dribble before shooting and that caused several turnovers (that's mental error, but also coaching error - in that you make the player pivot without dribbling over and over until the muscle memory sticks). Chagois got benched for that, apparently. But others were doing it as well. Unfortunately, we when needed to go down low, he's our best option because of his strength and everyone else was getting stuffed by their bigs. Clearly, we live or die by the 3, the opposite of LB style which was pound it inside. We don't block out well on the defensive end. We allowed their players to establish position inside instead of making them establish position further out. We have some good young players, perhaps they need to grow some.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby JasonB » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:12 am

EastStang wrote:In the Temple game, clearly they did not know how to handle the pressure outside, nor how to make shots inside. Our bigs have this horrible habit of taking a dribble before shooting and that caused several turnovers (that's mental error, but also coaching error - in that you make the player pivot without dribbling over and over until the muscle memory sticks). Chagois got benched for that, apparently. But others were doing it as well. Unfortunately, we when needed to go down low, he's our best option because of his strength and everyone else was getting stuffed by their bigs. Clearly, we live or die by the 3, the opposite of LB style which was pound it inside. We don't block out well on the defensive end. We allowed their players to establish position inside instead of making them establish position further out. We have some good young players, perhaps they need to grow some.


I agree with you about the inside play and coaching. I'll say that it was really bad in the second half because they ran a small lineup and used Mike in the post, and he clearly wasn't used to playing there and turned it over several times.

I also think that they struggle with high intensity, extended defenses because that isn't what they play and so they don't practice that either. Another coaching issue.

I want him to get this team to the NIT and next year to the NCAA. Those are my expectations. If the rest of this year goes in the tank, I think he is in trouble immediately. If we finish 5th or 4th in the league but don't get to the NIT, that is a disappointment, but I don't think they will pay the money. If he misses the NCAA next season, he is gone for sure, because the buyout is small. I think that is the reality.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby originaloverthehilltop1 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:13 pm

now THAT was some really good evaluation and discussiion! i feel enlightened. thanks guys.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby Stallion » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:58 pm

If you don't understand that substantial recruiting sanctions are almost universally a huge recruiting disadvantage and program killer then you are either not being honest or ridiculously prejudiced. It is especially true for a program that has relied heavily on recruiting Division 1A transfers most before the advent of the Transfer Portal which has changed everything. Before the Portal-and to an extent today-you can't rely on a Division 1A transfer who likely would have to sit a year if you were down to 8-9 healthy players. I could easily list 10-15 of top national programs in football who basically disintegrated after a substantial multi-year probation. You see far fewer multi-year probations in basketball-I really can't think of one in this part of the country in decades.

The real killer for SMU-along with the injuries of Shake and Jarray Foster (2) was the fact that highly recruited players like Doughboy, Douglas and the PG who went to Utah were busts. Jank gets poor reviews for evaluation and perhaps development but its really not true that they weren't highly recruited-2 of them were 4 stars

Another factor not mentioned is whether there was alumni commitment to fund the 3-5 of guaranteed salary Larry Brown was asking for-after getting 3 different programs on probation. I've never seen confirmation that someone was willing to float that check-I hope some of you aren't under the illusion that the school was going to be responsible for that contract
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby Hop Sing » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:28 pm

Money wasn’t the problem, the problem was that the SMU thought they had a replacement on the bench that was just as good. Middle age coach with zero real accomplishments as a head coach, but they were believers none the less.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby Hop Sing » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:39 pm

Speaking of money, how do you possibly repay the guy that turned one of the worst basketball programs in the nation into a a top 25 program with sellout crowds and a revenue producer for the first time in forever?
Unfortunately, if you are SMU you get cute with his contract and put a probation clause in it because you think you have a capable replacement in the wings.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby sadderbudweiser » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:05 pm

Nice discussion.

Let’s assume for just a (tiny, tiny) very brief moment that Jank is capable of another class or two like this past one. Let’s give him credit for the entire current rotation plus the Cal kid. Next year’s team looks pretty nice...... ON PAPER. Maybe he adds a critical piece be it another guy with handles (if that’s not McNeil) or a Jordan Tolbert type. (Damn he was awesome)

But let’s look at the guys who have been here two years minimum:
Chaggy has gone backwards every year.
Feron: It’s either sophomore slump or he’s headed down Chaggy’s path.... and he’s too darn talented for that.
Mike: Started slow but then has improved but perhaps not consistent at times.

CJ is much improved but (IMHO) does not have the ability to be a starter or even a solid rotation piece on a true NCAA quality team.

So.... Jank can’t really coach guys up. And that is something an SMU coach has to do because we’re not getting high four star guys on a regular basis anytime soon.

Instead, because the coaching staff in Jankistan can’t actually coach, there’s more back-sliding. Do Jolly, Band and Jasey improve when Chaggy and Hunt haven’t? Without some major change we’ve got a decent roster ripe for disappointment next season.

No knock on the players here.... it’s a good group. We need coaches.

Yeah the whining, the [deleted] scheduling and the lack of social skills are all a problem. But the real problem is the guy really isn’t a very good coach. He just knows how to survive. And as long as he survives here those here who felt the thrill ever so briefly.... will be bummed.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby JasonB » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:00 am

sadderbudweiser wrote:Nice discussion.

Let’s assume for just a (tiny, tiny) very brief moment that Jank is capable of another class or two like this past one. Let’s give him credit for the entire current rotation plus the Cal kid. Next year’s team looks pretty nice...... ON PAPER. Maybe he adds a critical piece be it another guy with handles (if that’s not McNeil) or a Jordan Tolbert type. (Damn he was awesome)

But let’s look at the guys who have been here two years minimum:
Chaggy has gone backwards every year.
Feron: It’s either sophomore slump or he’s headed down Chaggy’s path.... and he’s too darn talented for that.
Mike: Started slow but then has improved but perhaps not consistent at times.

CJ is much improved but (IMHO) does not have the ability to be a starter or even a solid rotation piece on a true NCAA quality team.

So.... Jank can’t really coach guys up. And that is something an SMU coach has to do because we’re not getting high four star guys on a regular basis anytime soon.

Instead, because the coaching staff in Jankistan can’t actually coach, there’s more back-sliding. Do Jolly, Band and Jasey improve when Chaggy and Hunt haven’t? Without some major change we’ve got a decent roster ripe for disappointment next season.

No knock on the players here.... it’s a good group. We need coaches.

Yeah the whining, the [deleted] scheduling and the lack of social skills are all a problem. But the real problem is the guy really isn’t a very good coach. He just knows how to survive. And as long as he survives here those here who felt the thrill ever so briefly.... will be bummed.


Davis is much better this year than he showed at TCU.
Mike has improved significantly since he was at Duquene: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pl ... ike-1.html
Hunt has improved his scoring, but not his percentages: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pl ... unt-1.html
CJ was a spare last year and has developed into a nice rotational piece.

I don't think the "no development" claim is accurate. Chaggy has limitations. He is not a low post player. The extended 3 point line hurts his game. He is a nice rotational piece off the bench. You need those guys, and that is what he is. Same with CJ. His upside is limited, but he is a nice rotational piece off the bench.

Hunt needs consistency on the defensive end and a more consistent outside jumper to start at the #3 or #4. He certainly takes more outside shots now, and it looks better, but his game isn't there yet. He is also only a sophomore. I'll be disappointed if he doesn't take a giant leap next season.

But we have certainly seen players like Davis, Mike, and CJ improve significantly under Jank.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby sadderbudweiser » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:15 am

Mike and Davis May leave having reached their full potential. I can only hope Feron stays and progresses.
But for a school like SMU to be a consistent winner in a non-P5 world (like let’s say.... Gonzaga) almost everyone must progress continually. Then you can fill in the blanks with a few grad transfers.

I wonder exactly how much Gilder and Timme regret their choices right about now?
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby friarwolf » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:25 am

JB, always enjoy your posts but take a step back. This roster is nothing but “rotational” and projects. The 3 best consist of two transfers and one home grown who had committed to TCU, that noted powerhouse, before coming to us. And, its even money we lose him after this season. Presided over by a marginal at best coach whose basic philosophy is hope our 3 point shot is falling. If Brown were here, he could coach this team up like he did with his first team at smu. But he ain’t here.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby sadderbudweiser » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:20 pm

There are still a few spots left on the “Disappointing Starting Five” and plenty of guys who might fill it.

I’m penciling in Douglas and Chaggy as starters.

Possible additions at this point include Band, Ray, McBride, Cook and Young.
In fairness, most of those guys might end up as net positive.
Apologies if that’s a hard take but it’s reality.
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Re: Jank apologists - you can admit you’re wrong in this thr

Postby PonyTime » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:23 pm

Stallion wrote:If you don't understand that substantial recruiting sanctions are almost universally a huge recruiting disadvantage and program killer then you are either not being honest or ridiculously prejudiced.


Really?

Louisville - Ranked #5, current ACC leader at 21-3, projected 2 seed - On Probation
Maryland - Ranked #9, Current Big 10 leader at 20-4, projected 2 seed - On Probation
Oregon - Ranked #17, 2nd in Pac12 at 18-6, projected 5 seed - On Probation
BYU - 19-7 and projected as a 7 seed out of the WCC as an at large bid - On Probation

Syracuse (beat #17 UVA and at 14-10) and Utah (beat #6 Kentucky and at 14-9) having respectable seasons thus far as well - Both on probation.
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