OT: DMN - Black at SMU

[Stallion]

Rod-Rod:
"and what is your solution do just what Justice Scalia RIGHTLY stated was an issue and that is let in students that might struggle at SMU because they are not prepared for the work and let them fail based on the fact they are of a particular race or ethnic group"

I knew your argument was nothing more than a veiled attack on Affirmative Action masquerading around pages and pages of facts and figures. Justice Scalia is an [deleted]. Let's take me as an example. I attended the game in 1966 where I as an 8 year old witnessed Jerry LeVias become the first African-American player to receive a scholarship to a SWC school. Rufus Cormier followed the next year.

I'm not unlike many that have had an opportunity to attend SMU. I came from a well educated family. My Dad graduated from Yale Law School and my mom got her doctorate from Columbia. They both had successful careers in which they rose to the top of their professions. They were able to afford to send me to the best private high school in the Southwest. Then I attended SMU which was a Top 60 university in the Country. The majority of SMU students can cite similar advantages from wealthy and/or successful families.

Jerry Levias although he turned out to be an Academic All-American was only able to attend SMU-might as well been any prestigious school in the South-because of his athletic talent. He came from a poor, disadvantaged high school in Beaumont Hebert. His family couldn't pay for a quality education even if he had been admitted. How many of the Top minority athletes in Texas do you think have the opportunities I had or the opportunities that most SMU alumni had? How many families of those minority athletes could afford to pay for SMU or any quality education.

The fruits and benefits of my parents success and many other SMU parents are passed down through my generation and succeeding generations in too many ways too be counted. Rufus Cormier also found academic success and became a distinguished Houston lawyer, earned the Leon Jaworski Award and bean named a Distinguished Alumni of SMU . There are success stories like Jerry Levias, Rufus Cormier and President Obama who rose above racial discrimination because they were given the opportunity that previous generations had not. The Justice sitting directly to Scalia's right Clarence Thomas is quite clearly a product of Affirmative Action.

This is only a 50 year snapshot of a problem that extends over many Centuries and we haven't even began to discuss non-athletes who didn't have All-American talents that gave them a shot. I'm only 57 and still have about a decade or so to maximize the benefits of my education. I don't know if LeVias, Cormier have had children but these are only 2 among several Millions of Texas minorities who were FIRST given an opportunity to better their lifes. There were NONE, ZIP, NADA before them given ANY opportunity among SWC schools or throughout the South. In fact among the populous between the age of Mr Levias and my birth-you might not be able to name more than a handful of African-Americans who had the head start I have had-same could be said about a high percentage of SMU alumni of our ages. NONE ZIP and NADA before LeVias or Cormier

[rodrod5]

perhaps blacks need to do a better job promoting education and educational achievement among themselves Vs spending their time getting upset about rap party posters and criminals with long rap sheets getting shot when they fight with the police or refuse to drop their weapon

Man, you have a low stereotypical view of blacks.

that is OK I make up for it with my "very high" stereotype of Asians and people from India

and once again if you want to be recruited and catered to as a "collective" then be prepared to face what the real world evidence and factual statistics say about that "collective" in areas of educational achievement

why should SMU have to recruit "blacks"

Except in sports right?

actually no I think that SMU should recruit the best athletes possible without regard to color or ethnicity and because blacks as a collective place a very high value on sports achievement they are over represented in most major sports

and actually I think that there needs to be a severe limit on the lowering of admittance standards for athletes by the NCAA and it needs to be shifted back to STUDENT athletes with the student being of the utmost importance

and while it would not be a level playing field for universities at any level to have athletes meet the same admissions of the individual universities because of the dramatic difference in those requirements I think the NCAA should set a high limit on both high school GPA in a set of core courses, possibly class rank and on standardized test scores for freshman participation and if an athlete does not meet those NCAA requirements they are required to redshirt as a freshman and they are required to take a set of core courses that 100% count towards a 4 year degree at that university each semester and to make a set GPA or they are ineligible for participation again the next season and repeat until they either graduate, get their GPA to the required level and or move on.....the university would not be allowed to pull their scholarship from them for not meeting required GPA metrics for participation only for failing completely like any other student would fail out

I think the NCAA needs to make a number of other academic reforms as well to weed out those that are not there for the education or those that believe their "skills" are not being fairly compensated with free room and board and food and tons of athletics gear and tons more coaching to help them develop their valued "skills" and with academic assistance as well

so no I do not think that SMU or any other school should recruit athletes based on skin color or ethnic background and I think all universities should be required to recruit athletics with both athletic ability and academic performance in mind and with a lot more emphasis on academic ability then there is now

and my answer is the same as Justice Scalia stated and that is for students to matriculate to schools that have the level of academics they are capable of meeting

there is nothing wrong with a student going to community college to take remedial courses or to take "college math" and "college algebra" if that is what they are capable of taking instead of sending them off to extremely expensive schools or schools with highly paid faculty to take classes they will struggle in and or to have those highly paid faculty teach them remedial classes at a very high overhead cost when the same could be done at a local community college

if they are capable of learning the material and moving on then surely they will do so correct?

what is it that makes higher education have to be a "sink or swim" type of equation why can't it be match the depth of the pool to your abilities and move on accordingly

do you teach someone to swim by tossing them in the deep end of the pool and telling them "get er done" or do you teach them the fundamentals of swimming and they watch them as they advance to deeper and deeper water and possibly to the beach with waves or the river with rapids

the idea of just tossing people into educational situations where there is a lot of questions about if they will grasp the material and perform is no less stupid than handing kids computers and having them look up stupid stuff on the internet and then pretending they are going to grow up to be great programmers and electrical engineers even though they can't do simple math much less understand binary, hexadecimal or the complex mathematical algorithms needed to actually make a computer do work

if you come out of the pool only comfortable in the area where you can stand and the water is chest high why would anyone tell you to go jump off the high dive.....and if you come out of the 12th grade only comfortable doing math at the 8th grade level and reading at the 7th grade level why would anyone tell you to go to a top university and "just go for it"

and that is universal without regards to skin color and for some reason whites and Asians and Indians accept this, but blacks demand to be allowed to go off the high dive anyway

[Rebel10]

perhaps blacks need to do a better job promoting education and educational achievement among themselves Vs spending their time getting upset about rap party posters and criminals with long rap sheets getting shot when they fight with the police or refuse to drop their weapon

Man, you have a low stereotypical view of blacks.

that is OK I make up for it with my "very high" stereotype of Asians and people from India

and once again if you want to be recruited and catered to as a "collective" then be prepared to face what the real world evidence and factual statistics say about that "collective" in areas of educational achievement

why should SMU have to recruit "blacks"

Except in sports right?

actually no I think that SMU should recruit the best athletes possible without regard to color or ethnicity and because blacks as a collective place a very high value on sports achievement they are over represented in most major sports

and actually I think that there needs to be a severe limit on the lowering of admittance standards for athletes by the NCAA and it needs to be shifted back to STUDENT athletes with the student being of the utmost importance

and while it would not be a level playing field for universities at any level to have athletes meet the same admissions of the individual universities because of the dramatic difference in those requirements I think the NCAA should set a high limit on both high school GPA in a set of core courses, possibly class rank and on standardized test scores for freshman participation and if an athlete does not meet those NCAA requirements they are required to redshirt as a freshman and they are required to take a set of core courses that 100% count towards a 4 year degree at that university each semester and to make a set GPA or they are ineligible for participation again the next season and repeat until they either graduate, get their GPA to the required level and or move on.....the university would not be allowed to pull their scholarship from them for not meeting required GPA metrics for participation only for failing completely like any other student would fail out

I think the NCAA needs to make a number of other academic reforms as well to weed out those that are not there for the education or those that believe their "skills" are not being fairly compensated with free room and board and food and tons of athletics gear and tons more coaching to help them develop their valued "skills" and with academic assistance as well

so no I do not think that SMU or any other school should recruit athletes based on skin color or ethnic background and I think all universities should be required to recruit athletics with both athletic ability and academic performance in mind and with a lot more emphasis on academic ability then there is now

and my answer is the same as Justice Scalia stated and that is for students to matriculate to schools that have the level of academics they are capable of meeting

there is nothing wrong with a student going to community college to take remedial courses or to take "college math" and "college algebra" if that is what they are capable of taking instead of sending them off to extremely expensive schools or schools with highly paid faculty to take classes they will struggle in and or to have those highly paid faculty teach them remedial classes at a very high overhead cost when the same could be done at a local community college

if they are capable of learning the material and moving on then surely they will do so correct?

what is it that makes higher education have to be a "sink or swim" type of equation why can't it be match the depth of the pool to your abilities and move on accordingly

do you teach someone to swim by tossing them in the deep end of the pool and telling them "get er done" or do you teach them the fundamentals of swimming and they watch them as they advance to deeper and deeper water and possibly to the beach with waves or the river with rapids

the idea of just tossing people into educational situations where there is a lot of questions about if they will grasp the material and perform is no less stupid than handing kids computers and having them look up stupid stuff on the internet and then pretending they are going to grow up to be great programmers and electrical engineers even though they can't do simple math much less understand binary, hexadecimal or the complex mathematical algorithms needed to actually make a computer do work

if you come out of the pool only comfortable in the area where you can stand and the water is chest high why would anyone tell you to go jump off the high dive.....and if you come out of the 12th grade only comfortable doing math at the 8th grade level and reading at the 7th grade level why would anyone tell you to go to a top university and "just go for it"

and that is universal without regards to skin color and for some reason whites and Asians and Indians accept this, but blacks demand to be allowed to go off the high dive anyway

Maybe you should tell Coach Brown and Coach Morris to recruit only national merit scholars. Harvard does it without any scholarships and does it on merit. maybe we could too right? Maybe have the NCAA set standards just above what the mid to upper level black students score that should get you what you want. Let's be the part of the trail blazers. And your generalizations are some of the worst I have heard. And for the record I honesty think a school like SMU can get more than 25 or so qualified student that are not athletes. So yes, I truly believe we can improve. In the mean time I am still cheering for our guys in football and hoops even if they are not national merit scholars no matter what color.

[footballdad]

Give em hell rodrod

[Rebel10]

Rod-Rod:
"and what is your solution do just what Justice Scalia RIGHTLY stated was an issue and that is let in students that might struggle at SMU because they are not prepared for the work and let them fail based on the fact they are of a particular race or ethnic group"

I knew your argument was nothing more than a veiled attack on Affirmative Action masquerading around pages and pages of facts and figures. Justice Scalia is an [deleted]. Let's take me as an example. I attended the game in 1966 where I as an 8 year old witnessed Jerry LeVias become the first African-American player to receive a scholarship to a SWC school. Rufus Cormier followed the next year.

I'm not unlike many that have had an opportunity to attend SMU. I came from a well educated family. My Dad graduated from Yale Law School and my mom got her doctorate from Columbia. They both had successful careers in which they rose to the top of their professions. They were able to afford to send me to the best private high school in the Southwest. Then I attended SMU which was a Top 60 university in the Country. The majority of SMU students can cite similar advantages from wealthy and/or successful families.

Jerry Levias although he turned out to be an Academic All-American was only able to attend SMU-might as well been any prestigious school in the South-because of his athletic talent. He came from a poor, disadvantaged high school in Beaumont Hebert. His family couldn't pay for a quality education even if he had been admitted. How many of the Top minority athletes in Texas do you think have the opportunities I had or the opportunities that most SMU alumni had? How many families of those minority athletes could afford to pay for SMU or any quality education.

The fruits and benefits of my parents success and many other SMU parents are passed down through my generation and succeeding generations in too many ways too be counted. Rufus Cormier also found academic success and became a distinguished Houston lawyer, earned the Leon Jaworski Award and bean named a Distinguished Alumni of SMU . There are success stories like Jerry Levias, Rufus Cormier and President Obama who rose above racial discrimination because they were given the opportunity that previous generations had not. The Justice sitting directly to Scalia's right Clarence Thomas is quite clearly a product of Affirmative Action.

This is only a 50 year snapshot of a problem that extends over many Centuries and we haven't even began to discuss non-athletes who didn't have All-American talents that gave them a shot. I'm only 57 and still have about a decade or so to maximize the benefits of my education. I don't know if LeVias, Cormier have had children but these are only 2 among several Millions of Texas minorities who were FIRST given an opportunity to better their lifes. There were NONE, ZIP, NADA before them given ANY opportunity among SWC schools or throughout the South. In fact among the populous between the age of Mr Levias and my birth-you might not be able to name more than a handful of African-Americans who had the head start I have had-same could be said about a high percentage of SMU alumni of our ages. NONE ZIP and NADA before LeVias or Cormier

Thanks for sharing that Stallion.

[Puckhead48E]

why should SMU have to recruit "blacks"

Except in sports right?

Pretty sure they are recruiting athletes. Their race is what it is...and not a determining factor in their recruitment. You seem to be in the right area code, but then you swerve of into space and lose the plot a bit.

I want to see the actual percentage and hard numbers of total applicants, accepted applicants, those offered financial aid that covers more than 50% of room/board/tuition, and enrolled students broken down by rave and socio-economic background. This data would go much further towards an actual fact-based understanding of the situation.

Then, I want to see what the school, greeks, other organizations, and individual students are doing to engage local elementary, middle, and high school students in under represented areas defined primarily by the academic achievement and socio-economic levels of their students and neighborhood.

I hear a lot of voices speaking passionately about what is the equivalent of putting bandaids on a compound fracture with a festering wound. Why? Because we as a nation and society love the quick fix and are drawn to eliminate the symptoms instead of addressing the fundamental problems and issues. Micro solutions only address the surface and often serve to exacerbate an already complex and difficult situation.


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Puckhead48E]

And please...please, quit with the tired tale of the ivy's not having athletic scholarships. Most of their students earn significant financial aid, just not for athletics. They are getting the assistance, it's just a different color of money.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Rebel10]

why should SMU have to recruit "blacks"

Except in sports right?

Pretty sure they are recruiting athletes. Their race is what it is...and not a determining factor in their recruitment. You seem to be in the right area code, but then you swerve of into space and lose the plot a bit.

No, I was just trying to make point. Obviously we don't exclude or ignore them nor are we indifferent to them in that area because it benefits the SMU athletic program.

[Rebel10]

And please...please, quit with the tired tale of the ivy's not having athletic scholarships. Most of their students earn significant financial aid, just not for athletics. They are getting the assistance, it's just a different color of money.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Point is the aid is not based on athletics. And by the way Puck, while I may differ with you at times I appreciate the way you go about it. You can disagree without being disagreeable.

[SoCal_Pony]

that is OK I make up for it with my "very high" stereotype of Asians and people from India

Ummm, Indians are Asians.

As for you Killen, maybe now that SMU has slowed down the pace of building structures on campus they can focus more on Endowment and monies towards outreach programs in Dallas such as the Mustang Scholars. Seems like a no-brainer but what do I know.

and on an entirely different note, LB is considered one of the greatest coaches in BB history, Coach Doh, not so much. But I thought he had a very positive impact on your career here. Care to elaborate?

[Killen]

that is OK I make up for it with my "very high" stereotype of Asians and people from India

Ummm, Indians are Asians.

As for you Killen, maybe now that SMU has slowed down the pace of building structures on campus they can focus more on Endowment and monies towards outreach programs in Dallas such as the Mustang Scholars. Seems like a no-brainer but what do I know.

and on an entirely different note, LB is considered one of the greatest coaches in BB history, Coach Doh, not so much. But I thought he had a very positive impact on your career here. Care to elaborate?

We'll see. I have low expectations for a number of reasons. I expect President Turner will announce some new initiative in the spring.

As for Coach Doherty - thats my guy. He restored/instilled the confidence I needed. Top 5 influential male in my life.

If not for an injury to Sean May, Coach Doh likely would have stayed at Carolina for years and had a high profile landing spot if he was ever ousted...But thats the breaks, literally.

[Digetydog]

Most of you people are bat [deleted] crazy when it comes to understanding why black and Hispanic people often feel uncomfortable at places like SMU or UT. We are always different and treated differently.

Just because I am Latino some people on my freshman floor suggested that I got into SMU because of some sort of special program. They were right. It was called the Honors Program.

Yet, the same people never said a word about how two mentally [deleted] Sorority girls in my stats class managed to get out of high school much less into SMU. The same people never said a word about the KA in my finance class who made a 16 on the mid-term.

SMU was very good to me and the vast majority of students were good people. Nevertheless,it wasn't all wine and roses.

[smudubs]

I will admit that I have not read everything that has been posted on this tread. Probably for the best because if it's like the things I've read in other threads I would probably be frustrated. That being said, SMU, in my opinion, has done a lot to recruit my kids. My son receives more correspondence from SMU than any other school. SMU extended the early action deadline to get him to apply. SMU has also waived his application fee to get him to apply. I am not sure that the university did these things because he is black or because of his test scores. But the university has done its part.

I've said this before and it should be repeated. The problem is not the university. It's the people on campus and the close-minded statements that students and alums make. The things I read here make me think that many of you believe the small percentage of African-American, non-athlete students should just suck it up and not voice concerns. That's easier said than done. Most of you have not experienced life as a minority and that's fine. I've talked about my undergrad career at SMU, but I have never mentioned my graduate time on campus when I was no longer an athlete. I was one of three full-time African-American students in my law school class. I stood on the stairs of Underwood staring at a sea of people who did not look like me. I had to explain to a student why referring to me as a "big black buck" was not a compliment. I had to explain to a class mate that approaching me and saying "Hey big black man" was inappropriate. He could call me Mr. Washington like he did all the other students or by my first name. I had to constantly explain to people that my 15 job offers were not because I was black and show them the "Dean's List" that I was constantly on with the exception of my first semester. Finally I had to constantly explain to my peers that I was not the voice of the entire black community. It was a different experience, but I didn't complain because the reality is that in my profession I am still a minority. I had to learn to deal with people whose backgrounds differed vastly from my own. I did that but it's not easy for everyone to follow suit. Especially considering that I was mocked by other black students for assimilating.

Finally, I have to add that people need to understand that highly qualified African-American applicants have options much better than SMU. It's not a slight on the university, but why go to SMU when you can be admitted to a better school? Many have commented when I talk about my kids that they are naive if they believe they won't face similar situations as those the students complain about at SMU at other universities. My kids are well aware of this point. But they have better options available to them. My son did not apply to SMU. The things he has read and heard about the school were a part of that decision, but not the deciding factor.

[smudubs]

Most of you people are bat [deleted] crazy when it comes to understanding why black and Hispanic people often feel uncomfortable at places like SMU or UT. We are always different and treated differently.

Just because I am Latino some people on my freshman floor suggested that I got into SMU because of some sort of special program. They were right. It was called the Honors Program.

Yet, the same people never said a word about how two mentally [deleted] Sorority girls in my stats class managed to get out of high school much less into SMU. The same people never said a word about the KA in my finance class who made a 16 on the mid-term.

SMU was very good to me and the vast majority of students were good people. Nevertheless,it wasn't all wine and roses.

Do like I have and accept that many will never understand this point. No need to beat a dead pony.

[One Trick Pony]

Hey I'm white.