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Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby Pony^ » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:42 am

Just to reinforce the previous comments, it’s instructive to look at the other private institution tied with us at # 61 (Syracuse). It's interesting to note that Syracuse has over 15,000 undergraduates compared to about 6,400 at SMU.

Neither school is a current AAU member, although Syracuse was from 1966 to 2011, at which time, they voluntarily withdrew.

US News Rank:
Syracuse –61
SMU – 61

Endowment:
Syracuse— #80 $1,166,109,000
SMU -- #64 $1,505,296,000

SAT/ACT Range:
Syracuse – 25%/75%
SAT:
CR 520/620
M 550/660
ACT Composite:
24/29

SMU – 25%/75%
SAT:
CR 600/690
M 620/720
ACT Composite:
28/32

Applied/Admitted/Attended:
Syracuse – 26,790/14,260 (53%)/3757 (26%)
SMU – 12,992/6360 (49%)/1374 (22%)

6 Year Graduation Rate:
Syracuse – 80%
SMU – 79%

Retention Rate:
Syracuse – 92%
SMU – 90%

Apparently, Syracuse does not make their Common Data Set available online, so I used the College Data Website for Syracuse's information which presumably came from their CDS: http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg02_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=130
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby NewAgeMustange » Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:41 am

Graduation and Retention Rates
Graduation rates are probably partially low due to affordability and job prospects after graduation. I'm not sure why job prospects should be an issue since SMU is in DFW. The main issue I see is that alums that can hire don't make sure all SMU alums have jobs. Affordability is an issue, since students may transfer or take time off if they do not have the money to finish. Accumulating loans with bad job prospects will do that. Finally, is probably student quality. While the quality has increased, we could still get higher quality students.


I might have some insight into this, and please let me know if y'all have had a different experience. But the interns that I have been "coaching" / mentoring are lacking. Yes, I expect to have to teach you what I do, but you should have some critical thinking skills and at least some basic knowledge of the Microsoft suite (excluding access, no one uses that in college). The most capable intern that i've had over the last couple years was a Junior- going to Senior from UNC. Not the Senior going to Masters from SMU. I'm all for SMU, but I'm also for making my life easier. It only takes a few to spoil the bunch. But I keep pitching for SMU and support them with the great Golf polos that you can get at the bookstore.
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby whitwiki » Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:23 am

I'm going to make a controversial statement.

I had an intern this summer from a large state school. I had one from the same school last summer. They were in many of the same classes.

The one last summer was much better because he had critical thinking skills.

The one this summer did fine, but his level of thinking seemed shallow. He didn't analyze problems as well.

I came to the conclusion that it wasn't the program, but rather his upbringing. He had successful parents who had high level jobs. I got the impression he was well trained and well coached. But when that coaching ran out, he wasn't used to using his wits. The kid last summer came up from nothing. He probably passed his parents in knowledge and experience in high school. He was more used to thinking on his own and not just listening to mentors.


I suspect you will see many SMU students who have similar access to good mentoring and coaching throughout their lives. They need to be taught to dig deeper and not repeat what others have told them to do. Many college programs don't encourage thought so much as finding the one right answer.
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby gostangs » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:38 pm

agree - what we sometimes attribute to a particular university training is really a family/societal difference - and also sometimes people are just wired differently. I do think SMU GENERALLY does a good in the business school of integrating the students into the "real world" prior to graduation - and that usually means some critical thinking skills. We definitely have that potential right at our doorstep unlike many more remote universities.

If you hire an intern - make sure they are a Mustang. We need to Mustang Mafia to be active out there!
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby whitwiki » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:50 pm

So the intern I just had, who we hired, may not have been a mustang. But there was an SMU tie in the family.

Plus I work for a huge corporation and don't get much say
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby orguy » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:38 pm

Syracuse as a sister school? yes, reality it appears.

So sad SMU cannot move forward in the rankings. Being compared to places like Syracuse is depressing.
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby rodrod5 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:07 am

orguy wrote:Syracuse as a sister school? yes, reality it appears.

So sad SMU cannot move forward in the rankings. Being compared to places like Syracuse is depressing.


few ranking systems use metrics that are favorable to SMU

"acceptance rate" while SMU should have a relatively low one it is probably not as low as it could be because of a lack of UNQUALIFIED applicants that see SMU as "too expensive" or not a place they will get into

acceptance rate is MEANINGLESS even for a private university because all it tells is the ratio of qualified and accepted students to unqualified students it tells nothing about the actual qualifications needed for acceptance

so publications like US Snooze use a completely meaningless metric instead of using actual freshman class metrics

other publications/rankings focus more on research and published research and SMU is not high in that regard especially for a medium sized private university

yet others look at "value" "life enhancement" and yet they ignore meaningful things like the large amount of financial aid that SMU gives to both numbers of students and in dollar amounts per student and instead they just look at "tuition cost" and assume that all students are paying a full ride and thus must come from "means" and thus getting a good job from school was not as meaningful for them as someone that grew up broke

never mind that all those that might grow up in a family with some level of income will not necessarily be handed tons of money or supported for life after graduation and instead will get a job and make a life for themselves just like others

so until SMU moves up in research profile, faculty publications to meaningful peer reviewed journals, faculty members in academies and other organizations, PhD production and post doc funding it will be hard to move up in many rankings past where SMU is now

it is not like others ahead of SMU are dropping down in freshman metrics (if they are even looked at), graduation rates, peer ratings, high school counselor reputation and the like while SMU is moving up rapidly in those areas
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby AfricanMustang » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:43 pm

rodrod5 wrote:
orguy wrote:Syracuse as a sister school? yes, reality it appears.

So sad SMU cannot move forward in the rankings. Being compared to places like Syracuse is depressing.


few ranking systems use metrics that are favorable to SMU

"acceptance rate" while SMU should have a relatively low one it is probably not as low as it could be because of a lack of UNQUALIFIED applicants that see SMU as "too expensive" or not a place they will get into

acceptance rate is MEANINGLESS even for a private university because all it tells is the ratio of qualified and accepted students to unqualified students it tells nothing about the actual qualifications needed for acceptance

so publications like US Snooze use a completely meaningless metric instead of using actual freshman class metrics

other publications/rankings focus more on research and published research and SMU is not high in that regard especially for a medium sized private university

yet others look at "value" "life enhancement" and yet they ignore meaningful things like the large amount of financial aid that SMU gives to both numbers of students and in dollar amounts per student and instead they just look at "tuition cost" and assume that all students are paying a full ride and thus must come from "means" and thus getting a good job from school was not as meaningful for them as someone that grew up broke

never mind that all those that might grow up in a family with some level of income will not necessarily be handed tons of money or supported for life after graduation and instead will get a job and make a life for themselves just like others

so until SMU moves up in research profile, faculty publications to meaningful peer reviewed journals, faculty members in academies and other organizations, PhD production and post doc funding it will be hard to move up in many rankings past where SMU is now

it is not like others ahead of SMU are dropping down in freshman metrics (if they are even looked at), graduation rates, peer ratings, high school counselor reputation and the like while SMU is moving up rapidly in those areas


SMU Can rise if it invests in the following categories, some are really easy and we should be able to (Faculty Compensation, Ensuring the professors have terminal degrees in their fields, and then making sure they are full time - Of course this would eat into some of the cash cow programs). The following three categories are responsible for 65% of the US News & World Report Rankings

Graduation Rate & Retention: 22.5%
Undergraduate Academic Reputation (Peer Assessment, High School Counselors): 22.5%
Faculty Resource (Compensation, Full time, Terminal Degree): 20%

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-co ... nd-weights
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby gostangs » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:53 pm

Not sure why the ranking services create such gymnastics around what is obviously the best way to gauge the quality of the school. Whoever attracts the best and brightest are the better schools. They should just rank them top to bottom based on the quality of the student body per the average incoming freshman scores on standardized tests. Everything else is B.S. and subjective.
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby Pony^ » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:57 pm

While the U.S. News ranking certainly has its shortfalls, many students utilize these rankings in making their college selection. The most immediate thing SMU can focus on is improving its graduation and retention rates. There is no reason in the world why a school such as Syracuse is outperforming SMU on these metrics. Great graduation and retention rates can account for even more than 22.5% in the U.S. News rankings when one considers the extra 7.5% U.S. News provides for "graduation rate performance."

Graduation rate performance: The difference between the actual six-year graduation rate for students entering in fall [six years earlier] and the predicted graduation rate. The predicted graduation rate is based upon characteristics of the entering class, as well as characteristics of the institution.

This indicator of added value shows the effect of the college's programs and policies on the six-year graduation rate of students after controlling for spending per student, the proportion of undergraduates receiving Pell Grants, standardized test scores and high school class standing.


It may take a while for SMU's peers to rate it higher on reputation, but SMU can act immediately to retain and graduate a higher percentage of its students.

rodrod5,

I'm not sure how a new medical school in Fort Worth effectively competes with with the Dell school in Austin with all of the money flowing in that direction. $50 million from Dell, $35 million a year from the Austin tax payers, 3% or 25 million a year, whichever is greater, from the Available University Fund, etc. Even if SMU had an opportunity down the road to participate, it's going to take a lot of additional funding to get a quality medical school up and going.

Since you referenced the statutes relevant to "North Texas State's" Health Science Center, I thought I would provide them here:

SUBCHAPTER H. UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HEALTH SCIENCE CENTER AT FORT WORTH

Sec. 105.401. UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HEALTH SCIENCE CENTER AT FORT WORTH. The University of North Texas Health Science Center at Fort Worth is a coeducational institution of higher education that consists of a college of osteopathic medicine and other programs as prescribed by the board in accordance with the rules of the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 25, Sec. 1, eff. May 2, 2001.


Sec. 105.402. PROHIBITED DEGREES. The board may not award an M.D. degree.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 25, Sec. 1, eff. May 2, 2001.


Sec. 105.403. TEACHING HOSPITAL; FACILITIES. (a) A complete teaching hospital for the health science center shall be furnished without cost or expense to the state.

(b) The board shall provide for adequate physical facilities for use by the health science center in its teaching and research programs.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 25, Sec. 1, eff. May 2, 2001.

Sec. 105.404. AGREEMENTS WITH OTHER ENTITIES. The board may execute and carry out affiliation or coordinating agreements with any other entity, school, or institution in this state to provide clinical, postgraduate, including internship and residency, or other levels of medical educational work for the health science center.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 25, Sec. 1, eff. May 2, 2001.


http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/ED/htm/ED.105.htm#H
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby SoCal_Pony » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:38 am

Stallion wrote:I got SoCalPony's back on this one-SMU was definitely ranked in the low to mid 50s circa 1985 before the DP and then the Pye debacle. After DP the SATs, GPAs and acceptance rates dropped dramatically. SMU didn't want you to know how far so they stopped publishing them right about 1988-I actually researched this in the 1990s in order to determine the effect of DP/Pye on the university. I was able to get all the pertinent information each year from a particular SMU publication-and then it just stopped being made public


Bump, for AM.

I distinctly remember having a discussion with one of my best friends in college while we were in a bar in Tampa in the 1980’s. There are 50 states. SMU was ‘almost’ one of the 50 highest ranked schools in America. In other words, we would have been the best school in a particular state.

Maybe it wasn’t US News, but whatever the Bible for college rankings were back then, SMU was ranked in low 50’s.
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby gostangs » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:42 pm

What's interesting looking back at some of those posts - is how much better our student quality is then the schools ranked the same as us. Somewhere in the data we are getting hit on something else - because if you ranked student quality we would easily be in the top 40 or even higher. This is a big deal so I don't know why we aren't using more resources to remedy the situation - even if it is a informational "brag piece" to academic peers and counselors informing them of this fact since they seem to be unaware of the facts. SMU has higher average student quality than UT - but if you asked 100 HS counselors about that 99 would not know that.
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Re: Does Dallas deserve more than SMU

Postby AfricanMustang » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:30 pm

SoCal_Pony wrote:
Stallion wrote:I got SoCalPony's back on this one-SMU was definitely ranked in the low to mid 50s circa 1985 before the DP and then the Pye debacle. After DP the SATs, GPAs and acceptance rates dropped dramatically. SMU didn't want you to know how far so they stopped publishing them right about 1988-I actually researched this in the 1990s in order to determine the effect of DP/Pye on the university. I was able to get all the pertinent information each year from a particular SMU publication-and then it just stopped being made public


Bump, for AM.

I distinctly remember having a discussion with one of my best friends in college while we were in a bar in Tampa in the 1980’s. There are 50 states. SMU was ‘almost’ one of the 50 highest ranked schools in America. In other words, we would have been the best school in a particular state.

Maybe it wasn’t US News, but whatever the Bible for college rankings were back then, SMU was ranked in low 50’s.


For sure it wasn't USNWR.

For what it's worth our metrics are really increasing and I think in the next 10 years with the planned capital campaign (I hope the goal will be something like $2 billion though SMU has a tendency of having mediocre ambitions), it will really take off.

Admittance/Yield Rate:
Fall 2019:
Applied - 13,959
Admitted - 6,601 (47.3% Admission Rate)
Enrolled - 1544 (23.9% Yield Rate)
https://www.smu.edu/Provost/IR/Statisti ... _year_2019

Fall 2003:
Applied - 6,734
Admitted - 4,076 (60.5% Admission Rate)
Enrolled - 1,383 (33.9% Yield Rate)
https://www.smu.edu/Provost/IR/Statisti ... ering_2003

Per U.S. News data, among all ranked colleges and universities, only 13 had an acceptance rate below 10 percent, including many of the schools that appear below.

By comparison, Harvard, Stanford and BYU (Yep!) have yields of over 80%!

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-c ... -to-enroll

Retention/Graduation Rates:
Fall 2019:
Entering Freshmen - 1,544
1st Semester Retention - (98%) - Entering Fall Class of 2018
1st Yr Retention - (92%) - Entering Fall Class of 2018
4 Yr Graduation (Spring 2019) - (75%) - Entering Fall Class of 2015
6 Yr Graduation (Spring 2019) - (81%) - Entering Fall Class of 2013

Fall 2007:
Entering Freshmen - 1,309
1st Semester Retention - (96.4%) - Entering Fall Class of 2006
1st Yr Retention - (88.6%) - Entering Fall Class of 2006
4 Yr Graduation (Spring 2006) - (61.7%) - Entering Fall Class of 2002
6 Yr Graduation (Spring 2006) - (71.2%) - Entering Fall Class of 2000
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