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US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby deucetz » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:33 pm

gostangs wrote:Like it or not - we are definitely linked to UT. If a big state school is viewed as better why would you pay at least 2X more for SMU? Getting tied with them in this ranking is definitely a great step - i would guess we will rise above them in a year or so, and at least be able to tell in state kids - hey, we are more expensive but you get what you pay for. That should help apps and yield.
@
Current leadership got our numbers up so not sure why you think it is vital we have a change. The issue is we don't communicate our student quality very well to counselors or our peers - thus the "below reality+ rankings from them. That has got to be stepped up. Quiet isn't getting it done.


SMU has done more with less. It's not hard to get our numbers up with an explosion in college applications at all institutions all over the country--students apply to more colleges due to the common app and the lower selection rate of colleges. Students apply to more schools then they did in the past. Same with student quality. It improves with most top colleges. Even Ivy League schools student quality continue to go up in terms of SAT/ACT scores and GPAs. It' could be that kids are getting smarter or that the kids are getting better preparation for standardized tests with more information (all the years of viewing SAT tests) and that high schools are inflating grades--especially due to AP and honor courses. It's better to compare statistics with schools of similar size and resources than anything. SMU should have always been ranked higher than UT, due to resources per student and the need to not have to take a class size of their magnitude. While half of US News rankings is about PR, SMU has had 25+ years to figure out how to market itself for them.

If the school is doing so well, why has Baylor and TCU caught up to us in terms of endowment? Why have their applications risen at a faster rate? I think SMU still offers more, but without carefully monitoring everything, we may be selling the institutions short.

SMU had a top 20 endowment in the 90s, now its in the 60s. North Texas population, economy, and number of Fortune 500 companies have grown during this time. The number of Texas high school students are growing at an exponential rate and SMU has to be able to capture that. President Turner was great at building the institutions brick and mortar through fundraising, but that's not all that's needed to make a great university--having an amazing faculty, the best students possible, forward thinking administration, and small efficient staff (SMU needs to continue to reduce bloated staff and administration) is a major key. Throwing money incorrectly at an issue helps, but we don't have Stanford or Harvard money. It needs to be directed carefully at key issues to ensure SMU's place. After Turner gets our IPF, he should leave lol--maybe he already knows that hence the delay.

I'm not saying SMU isn't a great institution, I just think SMU should be better for its current students and alumni. Dallas needs it to be better as well.
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby Pony^ » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:45 pm

Pony81 wrote:I think gostang is correct. If SMU can rise into the mid 40s and UT slips into the 60s then the perception will be SMU is better and maybe worth more money. I have 2 T UT and the Austin scene is pretty incredible as are the UT business and engineering schools.
But if you want to stay in Texas, can't get in or don't want Rice, then we could be a great alternative to UT provided we are higher ranked. Getting kids that otherwise would default to Texas would be a big boost.


When you think of the thousands of high school students graduating in Texas each year, you need to recognize that only about 508 enrolled at SMU in 2015.

In response to this inquiry on its 2015 Common Data Set:

Percent who are from out of state (exclude
international/nonresident aliens from the numerator
and denominator)

SMU stated 60% for First Year Students and 54% for all undergraduate students.

http://www.smu.edu/-/media/Site/ir/commondatasets/2015/CDS_2015-16_Part_F_Student_Life.ashx?la=en

For comparison,

Rice stated 53% for for First Year Students and 50% for all undergraduate students.

http://www.oir.rice.edu/uploadedFiles/Office_of_Institutional_Research/Content/Common_Data_Set/3.%20CDS_2015-2016_WEBSITE.pdf

SMU also reports 508 first year students from Texas for the 2015 entering class compared to 601 for its 2011 entering class. Each year the number of in-state students decreases and the number of out-of-state students increases. SMU likely takes a higher percentage of its first year class from outside Texas than any other Texas university.

http://www.smu.edu/-/media/Site/ir/Trends/2015/Student/Students_by_State_of_Origin_2015-2016.ashx?la=en

So all of this emphasis on UT may be misplaced.

In addition, there are many Texas students from strong suburban high schools that fall outside the top 8% (or so) who also have high SAT/ACT scores and many AP/IB classes; these students may not be admitted to UT. A number of out-of-state universities target these students, perhaps SMU does as well -- if not, they should.

We talk about Wake Forest, which competes against UNC, Duke and Davidson in North Carolina. Look at their Common Data Set:

Percent who are from out of state (exclude
international/nonresident aliens from the numerator
and denominator)

Wake Forest stated 79% for for First Year Students and 78% for all undergraduate students.

http://ir.wfu.edu/files/CDS_2015-2016.pdf

Focusing on out-of-state students is a good strategy for SMU. It provides SMU with geographic diversity and gives out-of-state students opportunities for internships and permanent employment in Texas. Texas now has about the same number of Fortune 500 Companies headquartered in state as does New York and California.

Baylor and TCU have seen their applications increase, perhaps as a result of their success on the field; however, they have not seen anything close to the level of increase in their student quality as has SMU.

Competing with out-of-state universities for higher caliber students results in a lower yield rate. There are simply more universities interested in these students and they receive more, and sometimes better, offers of grants and scholarships.

As SMU's becomes more competitive as a result of out-of-state interest, more Texas residents will start applying to SMU.

When you look at a school like Wake Forest, they are located in Winston-Salem and the largest city in the state is Charlotte. If SMU keeps improving, its Dallas location should be a no-brainer.
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby gostangs » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:34 am

We've been below 50 pct Texan for many years. The issue is that for the 40 pct iof the class that are in state kids, the other good school (UT) is cheaper and until now thought of as better. I'm just saying moving above them should greatly help our numbers over time due to being worth the extra money finally. Also our class sizes are about 1600 so 40 pct should be over 600 texans. It's a big deal to be behind only rice in state for all of those students and prospective students.
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby deucetz » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:51 pm

gostangs wrote:We've been below 50 pct Texan for many years. The issue is that for the 40 pct iof the class that are in state kids, the other good school (UT) is cheaper and until now thought of as better. I'm just saying moving above them should greatly help our numbers over time due to being worth the extra money finally. Also our class sizes are about 1600 so 40 pct should be over 600 texans. It's a big deal to be behind only rice in state for all of those students and prospective students.


It was 49 % in 2015. I believe 2016 is 48.5 % but SMU doesn't really publicize class numbers right afterward because they know it's not impressive.
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby gostangs » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:48 pm

what is the "it" you are referring to? If you are talking about the percentage of Texans in the class is has been well below 49% for several years.
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby deucetz » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:57 pm

gostangs wrote:what is the "it" you are referring to? If you are talking about the percentage of Texans in the class is has been well below 49% for several years.


My bad, I meant overall acceptance rate. I didn't read your post thoroughly. Been watching football all day
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby Pony^ » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:40 pm

gostangs wrote:We've been below 50 pct Texan for many years. The issue is that for the 40 pct iof the class that are in state kids, the other good school (UT) is cheaper and until now thought of as better. I'm just saying moving above them should greatly help our numbers over time due to being worth the extra money finally. Also our class sizes are about 1600 so 40 pct should be over 600 texans. It's a big deal to be behind only rice in state for all of those students and prospective students.



Not sure where you are getting first year class sizes of 1600.

2015 1374
2014 1459
2013 1431
2012 1426
2011 1382
2010 1479
2009 1329
2008 1398
2007 1309
2006 1371
2005 1402
2004 1313
2003 1383
2002 1380
2001 1353
2000 1278
1999 1331

The actual percentage of Texas students in the first year class in 2015 was 36.97%

508 from Texas
765 out-of-state
101 international
1374 total
1273 total when you exclude the international students

508/1374 = 36.97% from Texas

http://www.smu.edu/-/media/Site/ir/Trends/2015/Student/Students_by_State_of_Origin_2015-2016.ashx?la=en

If you follow the Common Data Set instructions, you deduct the international students from both the numerator and the denominator in determining the out-of-state percentage.

http://www.smu.edu/-/media/Site/ir/commondatasets/2015/CDS_2015-16_Part_F_Student_Life.ashx?la=en

That is how SMU gets the 60% out-of-state number reported on its Common Data Set

765/1273 = 60% from out-of-state

I'm not sure why the Common Data Set requires the information to be reported this way.

I will also point out that UT has several Honors programs with very competitive student profiles:

Plan II
Business Honors
Engineering Honors
Liberal Arts Honors
Natural Sciences Honors

https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-honors

I wonder how many recruited athletes and legacy students are included among the 508 first year students from Texas that enrolled at SMU in 2015.
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby gostangs » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:40 am

Well my point was that we are 40 or less Texan - but that 40% is still huge as far as the class make up, and that 40% prices us against UT pretty directly. Getting tied or above UT in the rankings is important to our future, so happy to see that this time.

I saw 6,400 in some publication as our total undergrad number so got my 1,600 a class from that. I have heard our current freshman class is among the biggest in the last ten years, but based on what you presented it is clearly not 1,600. Maybe transfers make up the difference? Doesn't change the conclusion regarding UT comparisons.

Once we get inside top 50 I think we should slowly work up to a 2,000 student class - being so small hurts us in several areas, particularly share of mind. Our state has double in size and we are the same size - doesn't make sense. Would greatly help with efficiency. Just move average class sizes up by 10% and we could easily handle it.
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby Pony^ » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:19 am

gostangs, you are right about the total number of undergraduate students. If you look at the link I have posted above, you will see that total undergraduate enrollment for 2015 was 6,411. You are also right about transfer students:

year/ transfer students enrolled:

2015 295
2014 287
2013 337
2012 325

https://www.smu.edu/-/media/Site/ir/Trends/2015/Student/Transfer_Admissions_2015-2016.ashx?la=en

Not sure that I agree with you regarding growing the size of SMU. SMU is in line with most top private universities with respect to its undergraduate enrollment:

For instance:

Princeton 5,402
Harvard 6,699
Chicago 5,899
Yale 5532
Columbia 6,102
Stanford 6,999
MIT 4,527
Duke 6,639
Johns Hopkins 6,524
Dartmouth 4,307
Cal Tech 1,001
Brown 6,652
Rice 3,910
Vanderbilt 6,883

Exceptions:

Penn 9,726
Northwestern 8,314

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

Both of these schools have a lot more applicants (of higher quality) to choose from than SMU. Other top private schools in, or close to, large cities (Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, Stanford, Rice, etc.) keep their undergraduate enrollments down.

I can't see how increasing the number undergraduate students would help SMU's academic profile. I'm sure SMU would have to add more dorm space if it chose to move in that direction.

Rice only has 3,910 undergraduates and they seem to have "share of mind," if I understand what you mean by that term. I also don't believe Penn and Northwestern have any more "share of mind" than the other schools mentioned above.

For sports, a larger alumni base is more desirable; however, Stanford, Duke and Vanderbilt do alright with similar undergraduate populations.

As far as UT goes, there is no doubt that it provides serious competition for SMU within the state of Texas, which is one reason SMU, and other Texas private schools, have seen increases in out-of-state enrollment.

But even if academics are very important to someone, UT's honors' programs are very competitive. For instance, students enrolled in Plan II have average SAT scores of 1444. http://liberalarts.utexas.edu/plan2/admissions%20stats_2016.pdf

I agree that as SMU's academic reputation improves, SMU will receive more interest from Texas applicants. SMU has had to compete against low in-state Texas tuition for many years. I think SMU can do better within Texas by, not only by improving its ranking, but also by better promoting itself and the scholarships available to Texas high school students.

Many Texas high school students believe SMU is just too expensive, and fail to apply even though many of those students would prefer a smaller school with smaller classes.
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby Pony ^ » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:49 pm

gostangs wrote:Well I guess that depends on what you think is incredibly hard. It is not all that tough actually. Anyone Texas who gets in UT or SMU can get in Georgia.

hah, got into SMU easily. The others...not so much. Especially Texas and that top 10% rule. Hopefully that's long gone
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby tristatecoog » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:47 am

Pony ^ wrote:
gostangs wrote:Well I guess that depends on what you think is incredibly hard. It is not all that tough actually. Anyone Texas who gets in UT or SMU can get in Georgia.

hah, got into SMU easily. The others...not so much. Especially Texas and that top 10% rule. Hopefully that's long gone


It's top 7-8% now.

Just being tied to UT isn't going to make people think the 3x cost is worth it. I know plenty of Dallasites who have $$ whose kids (1) want to leave town and (2) want to save money. There are much fewer scholarships given at UT vs. a plentiful amount at SMU. One doesn't know their true cost until they're admitted to both. The Dallas SMU parents I speak with talk about how their kid loved SMU and somewhat unfortunately ($$) it was their top choice.
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby gostangs » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:11 am

I realize there is quite a bit that goes into that decision. The point is - it is now a much better conversation then it used to be. It will be an even better conversation when we are ranked above them (hopefully in a year). There isn't much you can say when they are ranked above and also are much less expensive. Most who get in both would go UT in that scenario.

I'm just as concerned with Austin and Houston kids. We look much better to the better students if we can pull ahead. I think our admissions folks would confirm this is a pretty big deal for our yield.
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby Mustangs_Maroons » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:14 pm

I think our spot in the rankings should focus on hitting the 30 to 40 range of national universities. When you look at student quality at private schools in Texas, on average, it is clearly Rice > SMU > Baylor > TCU. The numbers also bear this out as does the average applicant pool. The distance in SAT scores between Rice and SMU is almost the same as the difference we have against TCU.

Also interetingly enough, looking at it from a P5 perspective, it is obvious that the B12 is clearly the worst academic conference. With the exception of Texas, not any other school in the B12 would be a top 5 academic school in any other conference, and that includes the SEC. It's pretty sad for them.
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby Pony81 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:18 pm

I'm a good example of the UT vs SMU college choice dynamic. My son applied to SMU and received a Hunt Scholarship - which equates SMU tuition to UT's. However, given we live so close - and with the economics equal (as opposed to a full ride at SMU) we wanted him to leave town to experience a new city and truly be on his own.

I would imagine a fair amount of people in Austin, Houston, SA are in the same boat. If SMU makes the tuition roughly a wash and its higher ranked then there maybe some appeal to leaving town to experience a new city. Also, Dallas is a huge employment draw and the chance to get settled and ingrained in Dallas which would be appealing.

If you combine the items above plus a 10-15 point gap in the rankings then SMU is really appealing. Once the academic image is perceived to be "better" than UT then you will find a much improved Texas student applicant pool
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Re: US News rankings released Tue, Sept 13

Postby Pony^ » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:37 pm

Hard to change perceptions:

peer assessment (15%)/counselor assessment (7.5%):

Out of 5 --

Rice 4.1/4.6
Texas 4.0/4.2
A&M 3.6/4.1
Baylor 3.2/4.0
SMU 3.1/3.9
TCU 2.9/3.7
TX Tech 2.8/3.4
Houston 2.6/3.3

Wake Forest 3.5/4.3
Georgia 3.5/4.0
Tulane 3.4/4.2
Syracuse 3.3/4.0
Clemson 3.2/4.0
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