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Bloomberg Best Business Schools in the U.S.; 2019-2020

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Re: Bloomberg Best Business Schools in the U.S.; 2019-2020

Postby Mustangs_Maroons » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:01 pm

Regardless of what ranking one uses, Cox has underperformed its potential. There is no way that UtDallas or tcu, or a&m should be anywhere close. We should be right there with UT at the UG level, and quite honestly, we should exceed them because our program is smaller and more selective. The UT honors program I understand is very good - that is what our UG business school should be.

At the MBA level, I also believe that given our location, we should be able to be a top 20 program. It is unacceptable that schools like UNC, Washington, Indiana and Florida are ranked higher. US news ranking: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... a-rankings

Rice has shown what a small private school can do in a large metropolitan city. Their mba program from what I remember doesn’t have nearly the same legacy we do. The deans have fallen asleep at the wheel, and this new Dean is not going to take us to a top 25 ranking. It was a lukewarm hire. I can’t imagine we can’t bring in a vice dean from a top 20 program in here.

Same goes for the law school.

It all falls on turner. No President should be at a university for more than 10 years unless he’s truly special. Turner is not or we wouldn’t be ranked where we are across the board.
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Re: Bloomberg Best Business Schools in the U.S.; 2019-2020

Postby deucetz » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:02 am

AfricanMustang wrote:
redpony wrote:RGT should have 'retired' or been retired a long time ago. twenty plus years is way too long to run a university. We need new blood with fresh new ideas on how to improve our school and its standings. cougar high and tcwho are rapidly catching up and in some instances have already surpassed us.


The Turner Years: 1995-Present

1) In 1993, nearly 90% of SMU applicants were accepted, in 2019; 49% are accepted.
https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/stor ... tory3.html

2) US News & World Report Rankings, 2004 is 73. (Before this year 50-116 were listed alphabetically), today (2020) is 64, last year was 59, in 2011 and 2017 it was 56 - It's best ranking ever.

3) In 1995, it's endowment was $483 million, it's now $1.67 billion. It has more than tripled.

4) Prior to 1997, SMU had 60 buildings on 160 acres. Today it has 101 buildings occupying 234 acres.

5) SAT Average scores were 1,100 in 1995, now they're 1,310.
https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/ ... on-campus/

6) Changes in total number of degree offerings from 1997 to present: bachelor’s went from 82 to 104, master’s from 60 to 113, and doctoral-research/scholarship degrees went from 19 to 27. (2015)

7) Changes in faculty positions from 1995 to today: full time grew from 485 to 736, and the student-faculty ratio fell from 13:1 to 11:1. (2015)

8) Changes in enrollment from 1997 to present: undergraduates went from 5,297 to 6,391, graduates and professional students went from 3,875 to 4,881. (2015)


AfricanMustang,

I always enjoy your content. This information lacks context. It needs a comparison of peer institutions, I believe all our peers have had the same increase or rise as we did during that same time period.

Turner isn't a fund raising genius, he is fund raising during a time period that has been easy for most top 150 institutions of higher learning in the United States. The baby boomers are the most financially successful group in America's history, they are reaching retirement age and are looking for charitable donation to help offset their tax bills and for general philanthropy. The question we should ask, is if he could have raised more during this time period. Not to mention the free money institutions can rack up by increasing tuition every year due to cheap lending from the government. SMU is one of the most expensive universities, rivaling NY elite universities.

University of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100,000 a year
https://hechingerreport.org/university- ... 00-a-year/
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Re: Bloomberg Best Business Schools in the U.S.; 2019-2020

Postby redpony » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:19 am

Mustangs_Maroons wrote:Regardless of what ranking one uses, Cox has underperformed its potential. There is no way that UtDallas or tcu, or a&m should be anywhere close. We should be right there with UT at the UG level, and quite honestly, we should exceed them because our program is smaller and more selective. The UT honors program I understand is very good - that is what our UG business school should be.

At the MBA level, I also believe that given our location, we should be able to be a top 20 program. It is unacceptable that schools like UNC, Washington, Indiana and Florida are ranked higher. US news ranking: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... a-rankings

Rice has shown what a small private school can do in a large metropolitan city. Their mba program from what I remember doesn’t have nearly the same legacy we do. The deans have fallen asleep at the wheel, and this new Dean is not going to take us to a top 25 ranking. It was a lukewarm hire. I can’t imagine we can’t bring in a vice dean from a top 20 program in here.

Same goes for the law school

It all falls on turner. No President should be at a university for more than 10 years unless he’s truly special. Turner is not or we wouldn’t be ranked where we are across the board.



100% correct. Plus we have schools like tcwho passing us in bus. school (which should not be allowed to happen). Agree, RGT raised a lot of money and built a lot of fountains. Seems like he missed raising the ranking of the school substantially in relation to our peers.
Now if you want to talk about our athletics vs. other schools then of course he becomes the joke that he is.
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Re: Bloomberg Best Business Schools in the U.S.; 2019-2020

Postby AfricanMustang » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:02 pm

deucetz wrote:
AfricanMustang wrote:
redpony wrote:RGT should have 'retired' or been retired a long time ago. twenty plus years is way too long to run a university. We need new blood with fresh new ideas on how to improve our school and its standings. cougar high and tcwho are rapidly catching up and in some instances have already surpassed us.


The Turner Years: 1995-Present

1) In 1993, nearly 90% of SMU applicants were accepted, in 2019; 49% are accepted.
https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/stor ... tory3.html

2) US News & World Report Rankings, 2004 is 73. (Before this year 50-116 were listed alphabetically), today (2020) is 64, last year was 59, in 2011 and 2017 it was 56 - It's best ranking ever.

3) In 1995, it's endowment was $483 million, it's now $1.67 billion. It has more than tripled.

4) Prior to 1997, SMU had 60 buildings on 160 acres. Today it has 101 buildings occupying 234 acres.

5) SAT Average scores were 1,100 in 1995, now they're 1,310.
https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/ ... on-campus/

6) Changes in total number of degree offerings from 1997 to present: bachelor’s went from 82 to 104, master’s from 60 to 113, and doctoral-research/scholarship degrees went from 19 to 27. (2015)

7) Changes in faculty positions from 1995 to today: full time grew from 485 to 736, and the student-faculty ratio fell from 13:1 to 11:1. (2015)

8) Changes in enrollment from 1997 to present: undergraduates went from 5,297 to 6,391, graduates and professional students went from 3,875 to 4,881. (2015)


AfricanMustang,

I always enjoy your content. This information lacks context. It needs a comparison of peer institutions, I believe all our peers have had the same increase or rise as we did during that same time period.

Turner isn't a fund raising genius, he is fund raising during a time period that has been easy for most top 150 institutions of higher learning in the United States. The baby boomers are the most financially successful group in America's history, they are reaching retirement age and are looking for charitable donation to help offset their tax bills and for general philanthropy. The question we should ask, is if he could have raised more during this time period. Not to mention the free money institutions can rack up by increasing tuition every year due to cheap lending from the government. SMU is one of the most expensive universities, rivaling NY elite universities.

University of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100,000 a year
https://hechingerreport.org/university- ... 00-a-year/


deucetz, thanks.

Fair point.

I hope by peers you restrict it to universities of our size (12,000 students)

The second century campaign ending in 2015 attracted 65,000 donors - the largest in SMU history, by comparison, the prior A time to lead campaign ending in 2002 attracted 40,000. Now compare USC's $6.2 billion raised by 322,000 donors completed in 2017 or Harvard's $9.6 billion by 633,000 donors.

Our size hinders us as well.
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Re: Bloomberg Best Business Schools in the U.S.; 2019-2020

Postby SoCal_Pony » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:20 pm

AfricanMustang wrote:The Turner Years: 1995-Present

3) In 1995, it's endowment was $483 million, it's now $1.67 billion. It has more than tripled.


As I stated in a different thread, In 1996, SMU's endowment was ranked #32 at almost $600k. Today, we are ranked #67 with $1.65B. For some perspective, the currently ranked #32 endowment is almost $3B, so to argue that the tripling of our endowment is some sort of achievement is very misleading.

Also, I believe we were ranked in the low 50's during the early '80's. This was confirmed independently of me by no other than Stallion, who stated on PFs he was researching the impact of the DP in the 1990's on our academics and came to the very same conclusion.

I can't imagine how you or anyone else can support the 25+ year reign of RGT.
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Re: Bloomberg Best Business Schools in the U.S.; 2019-2020

Postby AfricanMustang » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:42 pm

SoCal_Pony wrote:
AfricanMustang wrote:The Turner Years: 1995-Present

3) In 1995, it's endowment was $483 million, it's now $1.67 billion. It has more than tripled.


As I stated in a different thread, In 1996, SMU's endowment was ranked #32 at almost $600k. Today, we are ranked #67 with $1.65B. For some perspective, the currently ranked #32 endowment is almost $3B, so to argue that the tripling of our endowment is some sort of achievement is very misleading.

Also, I believe we were ranked in the low 50's during the early '80's. This was confirmed independently of me by no other than Stallion, who stated on PFs he was researching the impact of the DP in the 1990's on our academics and came to the very same conclusion.

I can't imagine how you or anyone else can support the 25+ year reign of RGT.


I think in the aftermath of the instability of death penalty and the Pye era, the university trustees value the steady hand that Turner has been as SMU, its a sentiment i can understand though not necessarily agree with.

SMU's highest ever ranking by the U.S. News and World Report was under Turner in 2011 and 2017 at 56. USNWR begun the college rankings in 1983. Before 2004 they didn't rank those above 50, rather arranged them alphabetically. When they started ranking them in 2004, SMU debuted at 73.
https://www.smu.edu/News/2010/ranking-17aug2010

You're right though that we have under performed on the endowment rankings. By the time we got the death penalty in 1987, we had the 27th largest endowment in the country at $325 million.
https://www.nytimes.com/1987/10/04/maga ... tball.html

Obviously part of the explanation for that is the building boom that has happened over the last 25 years under Turner, I doubt any university has had as much building as SMU over the same era.

Ford slowly came to a realization. New leadership was not enough. To truly succeed, SMU needed new workout facilities, new athletic offices, and a new stadium.

“Having substandard facilities,” argues Ford, “makes it hard to recruit. If you can’t recruit, you can’t win. If you don’t win, people don’t come. If people don’t come, the program loses more money.”
https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/ ... on-gamble/

I think with the buildings/facilities; we now go to the next phase - building the endowment to fund faculty endowed chairs, and student scholarships.

Murfin says that good faculty follow good student bodies, that professors prefer to teach where students are intelligent and interested. But the argument quickly becomes circular: Better faculty create better programs, better programs attract better students. better students attract better faculty.

Here’s where money can step in. A bigger endowment can fund more scholarships, in addition to the already successful President’s Scholars program, to draw brighter students from other institutions. With scholarships, the university is not merely waiving fees to attract students, it is paying the bills.

Money can also upgrade the campus.

To keep up, SMU must have top-notch facilities (read: a master plan).

And, money can support endowed chairs for superstar faculty. Professors that not only teach students to learn, but also teach other teachers to teach. It is up to Murfin to seek out. recruit, and nurture such leadership.
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Re: Bloomberg Best Business Schools in the U.S.; 2019-2020

Postby friarwolf » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:17 am

Good recap AM. I miss Murfin and so does Turner. By the way, Princeton and UVA and taught at Yale, UVA, and U of Miami.

We have the facilities - and adding more with the business school upgrade and the new Moody graduate building - and we have quality students. To put it in manufacturing terms, we have state of the art production facilities, we have quality raw materials (students), but our management leadership team sucks at producing high quality products - let alone world class products which should be our goal. We need new leadership that will demand higher quality results. They should also be looking to reduce costs as well but that is another topic.................
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Re: Bloomberg Best Business Schools in the U.S.; 2019-2020

Postby PonySnob » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:43 am

friarwolf wrote:They should also be looking to reduce costs as well but that is another topic.................


Maybe they should bring in Bain again.........
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Re: Bloomberg Best Business Schools in the U.S.; 2019-2020

Postby friarwolf » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:04 pm

The problem with Bain or any of those guys is they listen to what the leader wants and then they regurgitate a plan that mirrors it. Head guy beams with pride and Bain takes home a suitcase full of loot. The problem is Turner didn't want to spear any of the sacred cows so true cost cutting didn't take place. Bain identified all the low hanging fruit and Turner claimed a victory..............
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Re: Bloomberg Best Business Schools in the U.S.; 2019-2020

Postby Mustangs_Maroons » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:29 pm

Part of the costs can be by cutting Turner's outrageous salary that puts him there with the top presidents of many world-class institutions. He does not earn that.

To be clear, I don't have any problem paying our president that kind of money, if we were a top 25 academic undergrad, and our graduate programs where also top 25. We're not close and we're not trending the right way either. We need new leadership by someone that can use all what we have and take us to the next step as an academic institution.
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