the kicking game...

[JasonB]

Guys, let it go about the kicking game. Our snapper (at least on punts) is really young, but doing a decent job. Our holders are young on PATs and extra points, and our kickers are either young or inexperienced. Most of the time, we have bad snaps or bad holds on kicks, and the kickers don't have the maturity/experience to adjust in that situation. On the missed extra point last week, Stephenson kicked the ball while it was basically lying on the ground because of the bad snap and hold. An experinced kicker would wait a second and let the holder adjust the hold, and then kick, but Stephenson was already rattled from earlier when his FG was blocked.

Missed PATs and Extra points don't always lie on the kicker's shoulders. Sometimes there are other factors involved.

Fact: Stephenson is more accurate on shorter field goal tries right now.

Fact: an extra poitn is a shorter field goal try, so Stephenson has been working those.

Fact: McMurtray has a big leg, but a low trajectory, which is why he is not even brought on the field in long field goal situations - it is better to go for it and lose the ball on downs, or punt the ball, rather than have the FG blocked and returned for a TD.

Fact: If McMurtray had the consistant big leg everyone seems to talk about, then why aren't his kickoffs going into the endzone more often?

Fact: both kickers struggle with getting the ball up quickly.

Fact: When the snap is bad a third of the time, and the hold is bad a third of the time, it is hard to make a lot of field goals.

Fact: The winds are very wierd at Ford Stadium. Next time you are there, check out the flags. The ones at the open endzone tend to blow south, and the ones on the top of the stands in the northeast corner of the stadium tend to blow north west. This to me indicates a swirl and means that the wind patterns for the kickers might be extremely hard to judge (like that new stadium in pittsburgh). Thinking about it, the opposing team hasn't had a ton of success kicking either.

The coaches are doing the best they can. If the snaps and holds were consistant, maybe we would be able to more accurately choose the best kicker. And yes, both kickers look much better in practice; I have no idea how the snappers/holders do. Since the snappers/holders are also on the first or second team line, they may not get a lot of practice time at field goals. But the fact is that for the most part, 1/3 of that trio is choking on every single attempt. And that is NOT really a coaching problem.

My only suggestions to the coaching staff would be to kick inside ford stadium during practice in order to get used to the wind issues. I would also recommend doing the thing they did in "hard knocks", where at the end of practice everyone gathers around and puts pressure on the guys. That way they get used to the pressure in practice rather than in the game. In fact, after each practice, I would get the players in ford stadium, turn up the PA system with noise, have the players holler along side, and give each kicker one kick. Other than that though, I would recommend going for every two point conversion, because extra points are a disaster right now.

[Corso]

Not so fast, my friend!

You make several valid points, but I have to disagree with you with your comment about McMurtray's "low trajectory." In watching him during the spring, at the Red/Blue game, in practice this fall and in warm-ups for this year's game, it's not even close. His ball gets up in the air much quicker than Stephenson's. There's no way McMurtray would have had that field goal blocked against Nevada - Stephenson looked like he hit his own lineman in the back.

As for his kickoffs, you're exactly right - we'd all like to see him crush the ball through the back of the end zone. But until he does start doing that, consider what it would look like if Stephenson kicked off. The other team would have its return man standing at the 25 yard line.

Very good point about the need for perfect snaps and holds. Without that, Morten Andersen wouldn't connect on all his field goals, either. And I think your suggestion of practicing in Ford Stadium, complete with distractions and PA noise, is brilliant. They should have thought of that ages ago. Nice suggestion on your part.

[sam]

fact: Jason B does not know what he is talking about

[GrapevineMustang]

When did this become about who knows more, or who's closer to which player? Fellas, shake hands and support the Ponies!
BEAT UTEP!

[PerunaPunch]

No kidding. We (myself included) are starting to sound like the MM board.

Solidarity brothers!

[fbdad]

I agree with solidarity but I also agree with Sam. Wallis is the holder and there was nothing wrong with his hold on that kick attempt.There is no way to defend Stephenson's record. It is inexcusable to miss PAT's let alone relatively short field goals.The DMN article stated that he did not kick in high school, that he was backup to two guys that went Div 1. That somehow qualified him as a Div 1 kicker????Mc Murtray may be just as bad but we've only seen him miss one field goal. He was recruited by other schools than SMU. He was a fairly highly ranked HS kicker. His kickoffs are not as long as he'd like since he's required to take a five step approach versus a ten which he had used in HS.I don't know how anybody could evaluate him in comparison with Stephenson without him getting more game time kicking FG's and PAT's

[ponyrider1947]

Go read what I wrote on mustangmaniacs. This is the reason McMurtray isn't kicking.

AND each and every Division 1 team gets back 10 yards for their kickoffs. Do you know how much difference that makes in momentum of a kicker when you only allow him the momemtum of 5 yards vs. 10 yards????!!! I think McMurtray does damn well to kick it in the end zone as many times as he does - which is often - given that limitation which no other division 1 kicker has!!!!!!

And why ARE we doing this stupid 5 yard thing? Do you know we've been called offsides twice because of it? If it's so much of an advantage to give the rest of your guys a 5 yard running start, then why doesn't all the teams that rank above SMU do it??????????????????????

Last spring, someone on the SMU football coaching staff told me at a fund raiser that Bennett's philosophy about kicking was this: if you have to depend on a kick to win the game then you've already lost that game. Now I don't know that that is truly Bennett's philosophy, but that IS what one of the coaching staff members said directly to me. That has beared out in (1) no coach for the kickers, except for Bennett himself, (2) not enough reps for the snapper, holder, kicker, etc. etc. If you go back and look that seems to be the philosophy at Kansas State, too. Now (if indeed Bennett did subscribe to that exact philosophy), Bennett is backtracking and making statements like, "kicking is 1/3 of the game".

This continues to be a hot topic because it begs the question of WHY? Why can't we see how McMurtray kicks for ourselves???? Just like the Bartel thing - where we had to wait until Tate got hurt - to see what he really looked like?? Would Bartel be playing TODAY if Tate had not got hurt? This kicking situation smacks of illogical and perhaps unethical imprudence.

And while I'm at it. PK, not sure why you ALWAYS defend the coaching staff - are you on it?

Go Mustangs! Beat UTEP!

[PX]

Contrary to what you apparently want the rest of us to believe, simply putting the word "Fact" in front of your opinions doesnt somehow magically make them correct. Particularly when one of your "Facts" is a question, not a statement.

In the research field we have a saying: "In God we trust. All others must show us the data." I'd love to see whatever data you have to support any of your conclusions (or question.)

Here are a few for you: Stephenson is 4/5 on field goals in Ford, including his longest (30 yards), but is 3/5 on the road. For extra points he is 6/8 at home, but 3/6 on the road. So, it appears he is doing statisticly better in Ford than out of it. Our opponents are 38/39 on Extra Points, so they dont appear to be be struggling in Ford, or out. They are 5/9 on field goals in Ford, but the misses are from an average of 42 yards, longer than anything we have attempted. Two of the misses were by Texas Tech, and that would be the only game where I might agree that our opponent had a problem with their kicking game. Nevada missed a 52 yarder, but came back and made one from 45, and they hit all their extra points. I dont consider that to be struggling. SMU wont even attempt a kick over 32 yards, if its not that close we go for it on 4th down.
Tech is the only game that vaguely supports your claim, the rest seem to contradict you. I think this is a "fact" only in your mind.

I anxiously await to hear your evidence to support any of the other claims you make. And I should add that "Coach Bennet said so...." does not constitute evidence. If you want to call something a fact you have to do better than that.

[This message has been edited by PX (edited 11-09-2002).]

[DallasDiehard]

Keep preaching, PX. You seem to know your stuff.

And in reference to ponyrider1947: first of all, I don't read the other site. Since this one started, this is the only site I choose to read, because there's actual information here, rather than only trash talk, analysis of the girls on The Boulevard and chest-thumping about who's in which fraternity. I realize there are a lot of people who enjoy the other site, and as far as I'm concerned, the more venues there are for people to talk SMU sports, the better. I guess all I'm saying is if you wrote something we should all read, why not post it here?

Also, and I mean this as a serious question: When you spoke to your source on the coaching staff, the one who quoted Bennett as saying "if you have to depend on a kick to win the game then you've already lost that game...." - if kickers are so unimportant, did he offer a reason as to why Bennett seems willing to use so many scholarships on them? We already have McMurtray, Mentzel and Stephenson on scholarship, we've offered the kid down in College Station who's supposed to be good, and there's a lot of talk that the kicker at Highland Park (Doak Walker's grandson) still might get a scholarship offer if the kid in College Station declines our offer. If they're a luxury item, as Bennett seems to be saying, why not have one guy do all the kicking, take our lumps with missed scoring chances and bad field position and spend all our scholarships on other players?

I think it's a fascinating theory if Bennett actually said it. Most coaches say kickers are as important as any players on the team. They don't look too impressive in their pads, maybe, but a 51-yard field goal as the clock expires can shoot a dagger through an opponent's heart.

[JasonB]

I don't mind people making comments about statements that various people throw out there... but, lay off the personal attacks, eh? Sam? FYI, my cousin was a kicker at A&M and I taught him what he knows. I have been around and interested in the kicking game for a long time.

Anyway, I meant to put an OR on the comment about the extra point. That it was either a bad snap OR hold (I personally couldn't tell because of my vantage point). The fact is that when Trent ran up to kick the ball it was basically lying on the ground. The rythem was off on the entire play.

Also, the point on the missed PATs- The stadium/wind obviously does not have much affect on PATs. So that would not affect the other team's PAT stats; our problems with that are caused by snapping/holding problems and low trajectory kicks.

As for the field goal issue. I was VERY impressed with Nevada's made long field goal. That is the longest I have seen made in Ford stadium. I don't recall longer ones making it through. I think that (and I haven't done this, admittedly), if someone looks back over the past few seasons, you are going to find that 1) kickers struggle in ford stadium with kicks in the upper thirties and greater and 2) that teams do not even attempt such kicks as often as they normally would because of the wind issues. I have seen more teams choose to go for it or punt instead of trying longer field goals in Ford stadium than is the norm. Of course, part of it is our coaching staff not having confidence in our kickers to make any kicks . But I have seen the other teams do it as well.

Anyway, the point of the topic was that we should lay off the kickers a bit. The stadium is tough to kick in. And the snapping/holding isn't doing them much good either. Trent's low trajectory on short field goals really, really bothers me, and I am sure that bothers Coach Bennett. And coaching wise, I would place them in the environment they kick in and put a little more pressure on them during practice. But to imply that our kicking issues should be placed squarely on the back of the kickers and coaches is ridiculous. Coach Bennett comes from a K State and A&M background, where kickers are normally pretty darn good, and I would think that he would have picked up advice from them on how to run a special teams program. And lord help me if we run off and get another kicker in the next two years, because we don't need to waste three scholarships on field goal kickers.

The last point I want to make is that Trent's swing into the ball is too quick. When you swing quick, two things happen. One is that if you connect at the correct point of the ball, your balance is off and you will pull your kick. The second is that your foot comes up pre-maturely, so you tend to hit more towards the center of the ball, which causes the trajectory to straighten out. That, combined with the PAT miss last week when he didn't give the holder time to get the ball down properly, shows me that he is not handling himself well on the field. He may be more consistant in practice, and may be out performing McMurtray in practice, but it is hard to predict how the guys will do when they get on the field. Making 7 out of ten field goals in practice is one thing. But sitting on the bench for 30 minutes and then running out and making a clutch field goal takes an entirely different mentality. Some people have it, and some people don't (my cousin, for instant, didn't, which is why he only worked kickoffs at A&M even though he had the leg from hell). And some players develop it with game experience. Neither of our guys have much college experience, so hopefully that maturity develops over time.

[smudad]

I'd like to know what some (particularly PX and ReedFrog, if he's posting here) think of the idea of getting the kickers the type teaching/training they need. I hate to keep harping on it, but these guys can have great talent and great tools, but if they practice poorly and perpetuate bad technique, they will always kick poorly under pressure - game situations. Why would we spend so much effort in getting good kickers - I'm conceding the talent level - and not devote the proper amount of coaching to that talent?

I had my TCU '98 tape out a few days ago - The win-one-for-Pat game. Bennet is fairly prominent in that tape. However, I just happened to be queu'd up to a point where TCU scored. They celebrated too much and were penalized 15 yds. Mr. Reeder (ReedFrog) drilled that extra point through (into the wind) like it was from the 3. The guy could kick. I'd be curious to know his opinion on this thing. And also - What kind of special coaching was available to him during his time at TCU. WE MUST GET BETTER AT THIS FACET OF THE GAME!

[smudad]

I'd like to know what some (particularly PX and ReedFrog, if he's posting here) think of the idea of getting the kickers the type teaching/training they need. I hate to keep harping on it, but these guys can have great talent and great tools, but if they practice poorly and perpetuate bad technique, they will always kick poorly under pressure - game situations. Why would we spend so much effort in getting good kickers - I'm conceding the talent level - and not devote the proper amount of coaching to that talent?

I had my TCU '98 tape out a few days ago - The win-one-for-Pat game. Bennet is fairly prominent in that tape. However, I just happened to be queu'd up to a point where TCU scored. They celebrated too much and were penalized 15 yds. Mr. Reeder (ReedFrog) drilled that extra point through (into the wind) like it was from the 3. The guy could kick. I'd be curious to know his opinion on this thing. And also - What kind of special coaching was available to him during his time at TCU. WE MUST GET BETTER AT THIS FACET OF THE GAME!

[PK]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ponyrider1947:
<B>AND each and every Division 1 team gets back 10 yards for their kickoffs. Do you know how much difference that makes in momentum of a kicker when you only allow him the momemtum of 5 yards vs. 10 yards????!!!

And while I'm at it. PK, not sure why you ALWAYS defend the coaching staff - are you on it?

Go Mustangs! Beat UTEP! </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I saw at least one other D-1 team line up five yards behind the ball on kick offs...for what it is worth. Hell guys, we expect a kicker to make at least a 45 yard field goal with only a three step approach. Let's not get all bogged down in the 5yd, 10yd deal.

No, I am not on the coaching staff. There are several reasons I "defend" the coaching staff. I have been to several functions where I have been able to hear Bennett talk about our football program and I am satisfied that he is going to be very good for SMU football. I've watched a number of practices and see how hard the coaches and kids work. Lastly, it's rediculous to be getting all over a first year head coach and his staff when every other coach has been given ample time to do their recruiting and building of the program.

I agree whole heartedly with your last statement...Go Mustangs, BEAT UTEP!!!!!

[Pony4Life]

I used to kick, and a 10-yard run up to the ball makes a huge difference. I'd love to know why he's asked to go from 5 yards, instead of 10. Doesn't make sense.

It's official - McMurtray is starting this weekend at UTEP. The argument all along is that Stephenson was more consistent in practice. But that was the argument with the quarterbacks, too, and Bartel clearly has a better chance of leading the Ponies to a win. Hopefully McMurtray will have a chance to step up and show he deserves the job.

[braginator]

As a kicker in high school, I can tell you 10 yrds back for kickoffs is the way to go. Also, I spoke with Chris in the spring about why he starts out five back and he said that is where he is comfortable. Chris could do it from 10 yrds back even with the other 10 men 5 yrds up and timing his approach (thats how my team did it in high school) but he chooses not to for his own comfort.