SMU’s June Jones ranked behind Larry Coker and Dan McCarney

[rodrod5]

from an outsiders perspective here is what I see

I can clearly understand Coker being placed above JJ, but McCarney being placed above him is a joke

north Texas state and SMU were coming from about the same place when both were hired and JJ had one losing season before he took SMU to a bowl game and won it the next.......McCarney had two losing seasons before going to a bowl game and winning it

JJ has 3 more bowl appearances and is 3-1 in bowl games while at SMU......McCarney still has to prove he can even have another winning season after losing a massive amount of players from last year much less get to a bowl game and win it or go to 4 straight bowl games and win 3 out of 4

I would say that JJ was playing an overall tougher schedule most of those years as well VS what north Texas state was playing or played last year in their "big season"

that is the good of JJ it is hard to argue that he did not move the program up from a terrible place and 4 straight bowl games and winning 3 of them is nice

the bad of JJ is that he has been terrible at finding any type of decent QB and I suppose getting man off of the street or transfer from somewhere and plugging them in and winning is better than nothing, but I think after 5 seasons and rolling into the 6th season SMU fans expected something besides more of the same and overall talent level and continuity of talent and talent advancing each season is questionable as well

the ASU debacle was just that and JJ handled it extremely poorly and he handled it extremely poorly even if he had been able to actually move on and take the job and all the worse since ASU blew up and the offer blew up on JJ.....that was just a poor way to handle things after the way SMU has payed him and worked with him and if he is not happy or has some issue with SMU of SMU fan expectations then he needs to move on.......he has had 6 seasons at SMU and he seems to be going backwards and the team seems to be more of a hodge pogde of some guys than ever and that is clearly catching up with the team and the fans (save for a few)

it is D1-A football not intramurals and you are either moving up or falling backwards and JJ does not seem to be moving up

I actually disagree about the "totally recruit locally".....while he should be recruiting locally as strongly as anyone where he has screwed up in my opinion is recruiting nationally with the JJ brand back when the JJ brand meant something and turning that into the SMU brand

it is SMU great school, hot [deleted] girls, DFW (for those that have not grown up in the big city or that think they only can live in the big city for the lights cameras and fame) and some nice facilities for the most part.....JJ should have been picking up kids from all over the country and fitting them right into a strong system instead I can't figure out what he is recruiting for or to......just warm bodies everywhere

it is WAY too late to be bringing up scheduling he should have foreseen that YEARS ago he is in year SIX at SMU not year 2-3 and year SIX is when you are suppose to be strengthening the schedule after you had those winning seasons and went 3-1 in bowl games and beat some decent teams in a couple of them.......year SIX is not when you complain that the schedule suddenly got harder when you have been around when those schedules were being made YEARS ago

the comments by the local HS coaches were a disaster and embarrassing.....again I just said he should be recruiting nationally, but there should have been no chance that local coaches should have dared make those comments

I will be one of the ones to say that local and Texas HS coaches can get downright stupid when it comes to "they should be signing my guys not out of state guys" especially since there are 12 damn D1-A programs in Texas now and if "your guy" can't end up at one of them then "your guy" probably sucked worse than you care to admit and stop pretending like D1-A football in Texas is a charity case for "your guys" especially when there are pretty much 100 other D1-A programs recruiting Texas as well as 200 D-AA and D1-A programs total recruiting Texas and if "your guy" had an ounce of common sense and skills he would have made one

but at the same time JJ and the rest clearly did not have enough of a reputation with those local coaches where they respected JJ enough or feared JJ enough to not say some pretty damning things about him in a major news paper......privately sure.....publicly there is an issue and part of that HAS to be on JJ especially in year SIX and more than that for recruiting seasons

JJ has failed to connect wit the fans.....not sure how or why, but it is without a doubt true and when you are either going up or coming down you hope you have connected with the fans when you are coming down.....and he is clearly not connecting with local HS coaches as well so I place that on JJ because he has some apparent "connecting" issues he needs to work on

I will say the fan support has not been that great at SMU and that is probably not a boost for a coach, but a coach that makes a ton of cash and that cares would have found a way to try and make that connection (perhaps Larry B can have a coaches making a connection camp just for JJ because Larry B gets it and lets be honest Larry B could ride the pine on name and reputation as much or more than anyone and he apparently chooses not to.....some just like to really win I guess)....but really the fans should have been showing up in stronger numbers IMO especially in years 3-4 and some of that is on the university and the fans

2014 is probably a make or break year for JJ (but not really for SMU) and I just don't see JJ getting it done with the schedule, the lack of uniformity or cohesiveness in talent, a new QB ect it will be difficult.....I think making a bowl game would show that JJ can coach, but it goes back to the issue of a coach in year 7 in DFW at SMU having to "coach them up" to "make a bowl game" is not exactly lighting it up or "moving up" it is treading water and treading water usually means you are heading over the waterfall or going to drown

the last issue I have with JJ is he seems to really get his teams started out slow (shout out to Mack Brown) and then they make this last minute push at the end of the year or they come off just an OK season and stomp the hell out of a pretty good team in a bowl game while showing real talent and ability......I think that is a sign of not trying as hard in the off season and I don't like to say that about JJ because I respect him overall, but this is D1-A football in Texas damn it and taking it easy is not in the picture unless you want to take it easy without a job to worry about

back to Mack Brown.....JJ shows a lot of the same issues.....lack of ability to get talent that melds together right from the start of the season.....lack of ability to get talent that shines in the system (UT did not have an offensive system that was part of the issue there)....lack of ability to get the talent aligned and motivated to start the season and then coming on strong at the end when the major goals have already fallen out of grasp

I would hate to see JJ go, but at the same time things have just not fallen into place and SMU and JJ and HS coaches in Texas and the area and the schedule and how JJ did some things and the fans ect all have just not come together and unfortunately when you are heading into year 7 with a lot of questions and off of a let down season and facing a tough schedule that is probably not the time to "make it happen" and even if JJ did make a bowl game and beat a decent team to end the year......is SMU really back on the upswing or is it more of the same and I think that is the real issue for many SMU fans.......it is almost better to have major expectations based on returning talent and schedule and everything else and see it all fail than start each season with a giant and then at the end of the season you still have a giant about where you are and where you are heading.....and JJ is just a giant in year six heading into year seven

and for foxieraider that is the most stupid list of coaching candidates ever that would be a great list for north Texas state or McNeese State of they were looking for a coach not SMU

[RGV Pony]

Longest post ever?

[mrydel]

Longest post ever?

No. He has a longer one on ATH.

[WordUpBU]

sbsmith- I disagree that regular series with P5 teams will have a bigger impact than continued wins.

Assume you get TWO P5 teams at home every year (about the maximum you can expect) and they BOTH bring 15k more combined SMU and visitor fans than you'd get otherwise.

30k combined
6 home games

5k attendance spike under ideal conditions

BUT...

If you lose the 3 or 4 P5 games (you have to at least do H&H with one if not two to get them to come to Ford) you can EASILY dampen your own fanbase's enthusiasm to show up by around that much if you lose in disappointing fashion.

Winning 9+ games annually won't give you as early of a spike but it will give you a more durable and lasting one. Both Baylor and TCU are good examples here. The Frogs turned attendance in their favor by winning consistently. Other than maybe 1 game per year against a P5 team (which wasn't always a good one) they grew their fanbase by pounding programs like Wyoming, CSU, UAB, Southern Miss, UNLV, and New Mexico into the ground. The appeal became the strong home team, not the logos on the other helmet.

Baylor is another example. When we sucked it didn't matter how many other teams brought to FCS, our attendance sucked despite playing UT, OU, A&M, Tech, OSU, and Nebraska. Give us a few years of winning and a strong team and our home games last year averaged around 15k more BU fans than they did a when we sucked. Last season we drew almost 46,000 per game with only an average of around 2.6k being visitor fans according to estimates.

You grow your attendance with sustained growth in the win column, not the appeal of the opponent.

The Frogs turned attendance by recruiting better (you've all seen Stallion's figures on their recruiting) without that none of the winning would have occurred. There's too much talk of weakening the schedule with no regard to how improving recruiting can help you beat better teams. Improve recruiting and there won't be any need to run from legit competition.

I don't think anyone is arguing recruiting doesn't need to improve. My argument is that scheduling 1-2 P5 teams instead of 3-4 helps get records that boost recruiting and over time will help boost attendance.

[WordUpBU]

Baylor isn't SMU
K-State is not SMU

Each had long periods of crap prior to drawing exponentially larger crowds once they started winning. They aren't SMU but there are a lot of lessons that could be learned that apply to SMU's situation. Same with TCU and UH.

SMU has to play a decent schedule to remain relevant in Texas

TCU prior to 2009 is exhibit A of why this is crap. Mostly one P5 opponent and plenty of success drew crowds in the same metro DMA.

SMU averaged 18,000 this year-less than 15,000 of their own fans

Tech brought a good visiting crowd. Who else did? Not Rutgers, Temple, MSU, UConn, and certainly not the UCF snowstorm game. SMU probably had around 15.5-16.5k of that average. Those other teams don't do enough to push the average up much at all even if you generously give Tech 15k of their game's crowd and give each of those fanbases a generous 1k each.

Divided among 6 games Tech's fans amount to a 2.6k impact on the average. Where is the other 1.2k coming from to drop the 18.7k attendance down?

We don't have UT, OU, OSU, Tech, K-State, West Virginia on our schedule to strengthen our schedule and fill our seats
We don't sellout our season like TCU
Too many people prescribe remedies for SMU based upon what they think they learned from disparate schools
Nobody gives a damn about playing a [deleted] schedule

As my alma mater proved when it stunk, nobody cares if you get drilled by a good schedule. Winning is the key. Baylor's attendance this season was big for teams like Wofford, a reeling WVU, ISU who was in bad shape, Buffalo, and ULM. Not exactly the A list.

a healthy percentage of the increase in interest in SMU Basketball was the national profile of the AAC teams we played this year-then we beat their [deleted] and the momentum was rolling-that's what sbsmith is describing

National profile of teams? UConn and maybe Memphis were the only "names" early in the schedule. You ended up drawing over 6k for Hofstra and USF not because of who THEY are but because your team was 11-4 with a few good wins.

SMU vs Houston when SMU wasn't good under LB: 3.8k
SMU vs Houston last year with a winning team: 6.9k

Same deal with Memphis- 5.1k vs 7k

2 years ago attendance vs UCF: 2k
Last year: 7k

Winning matters above all other attendance factors. Scheduling more than 1-2 power 5 league teams per year won't help as much as it hurts compared to a 1-2 game plan.

[Big12Mustang]

sbsmith- I disagree that regular series with P5 teams will have a bigger impact than continued wins.

Assume you get TWO P5 teams at home every year (about the maximum you can expect) and they BOTH bring 15k more combined SMU and visitor fans than you'd get otherwise.

30k combined
6 home games

5k attendance spike under ideal conditions

BUT...

If you lose the 3 or 4 P5 games (you have to at least do H&H with one if not two to get them to come to Ford) you can EASILY dampen your own fanbase's enthusiasm to show up by around that much if you lose in disappointing fashion.

Winning 9+ games annually won't give you as early of a spike but it will give you a more durable and lasting one. Both Baylor and TCU are good examples here. The Frogs turned attendance in their favor by winning consistently. Other than maybe 1 game per year against a P5 team (which wasn't always a good one) they grew their fanbase by pounding programs like Wyoming, CSU, UAB, Southern Miss, UNLV, and New Mexico into the ground. The appeal became the strong home team, not the logos on the other helmet.

Baylor is another example. When we sucked it didn't matter how many other teams brought to FCS, our attendance sucked despite playing UT, OU, A&M, Tech, OSU, and Nebraska. Give us a few years of winning and a strong team and our home games last year averaged around 15k more BU fans than they did a when we sucked. Last season we drew almost 46,000 per game with only an average of around 2.6k being visitor fans according to estimates.

You grow your attendance with sustained growth in the win column, not the appeal of the opponent.

The Frogs turned attendance by recruiting better (you've all seen Stallion's figures on their recruiting) without that none of the winning would have occurred. There's too much talk of weakening the schedule with no regard to how improving recruiting can help you beat better teams. Improve recruiting and there won't be any need to run from legit competition.

I don't think anyone is arguing recruiting doesn't need to improve. My argument is that scheduling 1-2 P5 teams instead of 3-4 helps get records that boost recruiting and over time will help boost attendance.

BU is right...

[WordUpBU]

It is absolutely embarrassing to listen to people afraid to play big boy football. Recruit players and we can compete. We barely edged Montana State last year. That is a game you win by 30 if you want to draw fans. The problem is not the opponent. The problem us our product.

Afraid would mean not playing P5 at all. Playing 1-2 instead of 3-4 isn't fear.

Recruiting and the product it leads to is the issue and 1-2 wins per year leads to better brand recognition with recruits, better exposure, more bowls, and more advantages to recruiting and attendance efforts. You need a coach that will leverage it well though.

[sbsmith]

I don't think anyone is arguing recruiting doesn't need to improve. My argument is that scheduling 1-2 P5 teams instead of 3-4 helps get records that boost recruiting and over time will help boost attendance.

My argument is that making recruiting a priority will boost recruiting. There's no need to try some weak scheduling boondoggle that no legit recruit will fall for anyway. A legit OOC schedule will be a huge asset for us in recruiting once we get a HC that can sell it to recruits.

[mrydel]

It is absolutely embarrassing to listen to people afraid to play big boy football. Recruit players and we can compete. We barely edged Montana State last year. That is a game you win by 30 if you want to draw fans. The problem is not the opponent. The problem us our product.

Afraid would mean not playing P5 at all. Playing 1-2 instead of 3-4 isn't fear.

Recruiting and the product it leads to is the issue and 1-2 wins per year leads to better brand recognition with recruits, better exposure, more bowls, and more advantages to recruiting and attendance efforts. You need a coach that will leverage it well though.

Our conference schedule is too weak to play a weak OOC. You get us in the Big 12 and I will advocate a lesser OOC. I enjoy watching real football.

[PonyKai]

2007: Texas Tech, North Texas, Arkansas State, TCU
2008: Texas Tech, Texas State, Navy, TCU
2009:SFA, Washington State, TCU, Navy
2010: Texas Tech, TCU, Navy, Washington State
2011: Texas A&M, Northwestern State, TCU, Navy
2012: Baylor, SFA, TAMU, TCU
2013: Texas Tech, Montana State, TAMU, TCU

Looks like the schedule was fine, particularly considering how flippin awful CUSA is/was when June was hired and supposed to be building a team to compete with P5/traditional rivals. Looks like he just did a bad job at recruiting, and is now trying to spin it in his favor because he's going to get beaten like a drum this year, and apparently to go 12-0 you need to play 4 of the worst conceivable OOC teams and then have a terrible conference slate.

Oh, and at the risk of being labeled a "lemming," I don't give June the benefit of the doubt when he says the OOC schedule is too difficult to generate sufficient wins, etc., to build momentum. This is the same guy who, when hired, immediately tossed out the most prolific and successful dual-threat QB in likely a quarter of a century (Flannigan may get the nod), and refused to tailor his offensive system in any way to fit his skill set, instead deciding to start a lightly-recruited true freshman surrounded by almost no talent capable of masking his deficiencies, which directly contributed to going 1-11, which is far more likely to hinder progress in recruiting and building a program.

[Big12Mustang]

Baylor isn't SMU
K-State is not SMU

Each had long periods of crap prior to drawing exponentially larger crowds once they started winning. They aren't SMU but there are a lot of lessons that could be learned that apply to SMU's situation. Same with TCU and UH.

SMU has to play a decent schedule to remain relevant in Texas

TCU prior to 2009 is exhibit A of why this is crap. Mostly one P5 opponent and plenty of success drew crowds in the same metro DMA.

SMU averaged 18,000 this year-less than 15,000 of their own fans

Tech brought a good visiting crowd. Who else did? Not Rutgers, Temple, MSU, UConn, and certainly not the UCF snowstorm game. SMU probably had around 15.5-16.5k of that average. Those other teams don't do enough to push the average up much at all even if you generously give Tech 15k of their game's crowd and give each of those fanbases a generous 1k each.

Divided among 6 games Tech's fans amount to a 2.6k impact on the average. Where is the other 1.2k coming from to drop the 18.7k attendance down?

We don't have UT, OU, OSU, Tech, K-State, West Virginia on our schedule to strengthen our schedule and fill our seats
We don't sellout our season like TCU
Too many people prescribe remedies for SMU based upon what they think they learned from disparate schools
Nobody gives a damn about playing a [deleted] schedule

As my alma mater proved when it stunk, nobody cares if you get drilled by a good schedule. Winning is the key. Baylor's attendance this season was big for teams like Wofford, a reeling WVU, ISU who was in bad shape, Buffalo, and ULM. Not exactly the A list.

a healthy percentage of the increase in interest in SMU Basketball was the national profile of the AAC teams we played this year-then we beat their [deleted] and the momentum was rolling-that's what sbsmith is describing

National profile of teams? UConn and maybe Memphis were the only "names" early in the schedule. You ended up drawing over 6k for Hofstra and USF not because of who THEY are but because your team was 11-4 with a few good wins.

SMU vs Houston when SMU wasn't good under LB: 3.8k
SMU vs Houston last year with a winning team: 6.9k

Same deal with Memphis- 5.1k vs 7k

2 years ago attendance vs UCF: 2k
Last year: 7k

Winning matters above all other attendance factors. Scheduling more than 1-2 power 5 league teams per year won't help as much as it hurts compared to a 1-2 game plan.

BU is right again. Everyone wants to point a finger and treat SMU like it is this unfixable problem...
Attendance will improve once we start winning and recruiting. They both have to be simultaneous, because you cannot win without good recruits and you cannot recruit if you are not winning. This proven between 1989-2008...losing and not recruiting.