Give Jones Credit

[Rebel10]

I don't think June would have done any better than the other SMU coaches in the 90's in the SWC with the tougher restrictions.

[Mustangsabu]

I don't get some of the posters on this board who harp on June about the fact that many of his success stories were PB recruits. That is the clearest evidence that JJ can achieve more with less. If June can win 8 games including a bowl with PB level recruits then it shows he was able to make them better. By that argument I believe there is evidence that JJ would have achieved more during any point in the post DP era than the coach in place. Certainly in the Cavan/Bennett eras.

The issue to me is that June is now able to recruit higher level talent but that has not translated into further improvement. The consistency is something we have not had in the DP era, but I feel we should have periodic peaks where we win 10 or 11 games. It is this ability to step it up that I want to see evidence of this year.

[PerunaPunch]

I don't think June would have done any better than the other SMU coaches in the 90's in the SWC with the tougher restrictions.

History disagrees with you.

Tom Rossley (SMU HC from '91-96, 15-48-3) was (particularly in hindsight) a good coach. Interestingly, he chose an offense not too dissimilar from June's R&S to compete in the SWC post Death Penalty. And equally interesting, PonyFans complained about those teams, returning to respectability and Rossley's "gimmick" offense then, just as they do now. Rossley was named co-SWC Coach of the Year in 1992 when he won 5 games. Other than that, we averaged 1 win per year in the SWC during his tenure. His last year, we were 5-6 in the WAC.

Mike Cavan (SMU HC from '97-'01, 22-34 in the WAC) would never even remotely be considered in the same league as June Jones from and Xs and Os perspective. And if you're one who gripes about June's recruiting, then you simply weren't around for the end of the Mike Cavan era. Mike would sign a few good kids every year and then fill out the last half of his class with anyone who had a heartbeat. By the end of his time on the Hilltop, he was the ultimate lame duck coach, not even knowing when is star player (Josh McCown) left the team.

[PerunaPunch]

In addition, while I totally agree there are areas that need improvement (and to June's credit are seeming to be addressed better late than never), I think it's a logic error to assume the team has topped out.

College teams wax and wane based on when kids graduate, and (for example) when they move to a different conference where the level of competition may be different. I fault recruiting for not having some big juniors to step in when guys like Margus, LeRibeus, Taylor Thompson, et al. graduate. We may have topped out under June or we may just be younger this year. There's really not enough evidence to know either way. However, looking at the size and speed of our young players, it's clear that we're more athletic than we've been since the Death Penalty, so I tend to think we have more potential.

[Stallion]

History of what? Comparing Apples to Oranges? You are so completely off the deep end if you don't think both could have easily won 7-8 games under the present academic standards, playing a CUSA schedule, and in a new football facility. The SWC was 5 times tougher than CUSA, Guys like you pee down your leg at the thought of playing a couple of those teams much less a full schedule. Even the old WAC was twice as tough as CUSA People forget that the overtime loss to BYU was to a national ranked BYU team-that we played Top national ranked teams like Wyoming. who finished like 10-1. We had TCU in the WAC too plus Air Force and Colorado St that had top programs. We won't even mention the fact that the number of marginal academic recruits more than tripled between even Bennett and Jones. And Bennett had it easy compared to Cavan. And under Rossley they were requiring a 1050 SAT-which corresponds to a 1150 today to be admitted w/o being considered a Category C recruit. Your June Jones slobber-fest is impossible to know because June Jones never would have taken the SMU job in the first place because he has always been at a school that relied upon high numbers of academically marginal recruits

[PlanoStang]

The only time since the forties that we've had 9+ wins a season was when we HAD A PAYROLL
TO MEET That includes a couple of 8-3 seasons in 66 and 68 under my favorite coach
Hayden Fry.

[Stallion]

Comparing Apples to Apples-
June Jones is 5-16 against former SWC competition with 3 wins against Rice-otherwise he is 2-14 against the remainder of the SWC. June Jones wouldn't have done jack in the SWC even with substantial easier admissions and better facilities. Let's get real. The evidence suggests that June Jones would have made zero bowl games and had zero winning seasons playing a full SWC schedule too. Geez he has trouble staying on the same field with former SWC teams

[Rebel10]

Agree with Stallion. With the better teams in the SWC and the tougher restrictions June would have not done any better than coach if he had coached right after the DP. And he probably would not have outrecruited them back then either. I also think Coach Gregg did about as good as anyone could have given the restrictions.

[ponyboy]

I'll point out again that Cavan had two very nice recruiting classes in 1997 and 1998, I believe. The Malin incident killed all that and got us probation, which our competitors on the trail naturally used to beat us up. And, yes, Cavan may have given up at that point as ridiculous as the self flagellation was. But those two classes had some really nice players.

[Mustangsabu]

I thought you were an attorney, Stallion? There is no evidence of any of this, it's all pure speculation based on stats that span decades and are mostly meaningless, it's just being bandied about in an online forum. It is the opposite of meaningful. But now, apparently, it is not enough to attack JJ for his actual record against BCS and/or former SWC teams, we are now castigating him for how he "would" have done had he coached against them 20 years ago. Give me a break. JJ has not raised our team to the level of being able to beat the more highly regarded teams in the State, but before he had time to enjoy the fruits of more relaxed recruiting conditions he got us 8 wins in a season. Is it enough to hang your hat on for a career? No, but to lambaste him like this is uncalled for. He is, in the opinion of the sport from everything I have ever read, considered to be an excellent coach.

And I take offense to being accused of cowardice regarding our schedule. That's sad playground taunting of the most pathetic ilk. I'm in the stands to support my team whoever they play, and I actually support them. You can think me ignorant of the realities of the business of college football, I don't really care, but I do know that I am a benefit to the student athletes of this university. That's what matters.

[Rebel10]

I think Stallion was just responding to PerunaPunch's off base claim that history supported PerunaPunch's argument.

[PerunaPunch]

Rebel, you're just plain ignorant of your history, otherwise, you wouldn't have made such a silly assertion. Things definitely weren't any better in '90s.

Stallion, if you actually read my post, you'll see I gave Rossley full props for being a good coach. All I was pointing out vis-a-vis Rossley is that people like you criticized him for doing many of the same things June is being criticized for today.

As a head coach trying to rebuild a program with all the barriers you cite ad nauseum, Mike Cavan was in hopelessly over his head. Nice guy, but the fact is he basically laid down the last few years on the Hilltop while still drawing a paycheck. It would have taken a lot of balls, but if he was that far over his head, he should have just resigned and gone back to Georgia to play golf and raise money, which is what he eventually did. So before you start writing your retort, remember that you also have to give June credit for having the stroke to overcome the barriers that Gregg, Rossley, Cavan and Bennett had to labor under.

[Stallion]

Rebel10 got it exactly right. You claim Rebel10 is ignorant of SMU History and things weren't much better in the 1990s. No they were MUCH WORSE. June Jones took a job that had removed all the institutional barriers those previous coaches faced-and yet based on the EVIDENCE of actual games played would have been a cellar dweller against the same schools SMU faced in the 1990s. 5-16 against SWC teams, 2-14 against teams not named Rice. Yet Ponyboy wants to build a statute-not a very statuesque record. APPLES TO APPLES. He has a terrible losing record against every team but Rice and gets blown out in 10 of 21 of those games (defined as 3 Touchdowns or more) even WITHOUT the Institutional barriers.

[Dwan]

It is far from Apples to Apples. The SWC in the early 90s was pathetic and towards the mid 90s it was downright awful. Remember when Tech was a 6 win team that won the SWC in 94 and then was completely throttled by USC in the Cotton Bowl. Texas, A&M, Baylor, and Tech are much better teams and programs today than they were in the mid 90s.

[Rebel10]

The SWC teams were still better than CUSA teams. Good point Stallion. As said Coach Jones would not have gotten us to a bowl in the old SWC days either with the restrictions in those days which he did not have when he came to SMU imo.