Grantland: The End of the Run-and-Shoot Offense?

[Harry0569]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/june- ... t-offense/

Chris Brown is an excellent read.

[Water Pony]

Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed the read and insight into the dynamic nature of the R&S.

My interest is why this offense didn't evolve in a more lethal way and how today's defenses make it less effective. Conceptually, it makes sense, especially with programs that recruit at a different level and lack the size of the Power Teams.

What is the next evolution?

[couch 'em]

All the cutting edge spread offenses are the next evolution

[Harry0569]

All the cutting edge spread offenses are the next evolution

I think couch 'em is right.

[sbsmith]

My interest is why this offense didn't evolve in a more lethal way and how today's defenses make it less effective.

No running game to account for means defenses can leave extra DBs on the field and have their line rush more aggressively without fear of constantly being gashed by the run. That also makes RZ offense less effective because the field shrinks and passes have to be completed in much tighter spaces. Pattern matching defenses and coverage disguises can also disrupt reads which often leads to QB/WR miscommunication.

[Stallion]

to make it work you have to have a QB and Receivers that can stretch the field and an Offense that protects its QB. We don't have any. The one WR that probably can stretch the field has difficulty finding the ball in the air

[Fresno Mustang]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/june-joness-retirement-and-the-lasting-influence-and-likely-end-of-the-run-and-shoot-offense/

Chris Brown is an excellent read.

follow him on twitter @smartfootball..always has interesting stuff

[gord]

Schemes are great, but what makes them work are great players. That was Jones' undoing, not his scheme.

[Rayburn]

Schemes are great, but what makes them work are great players. That was Jones' undoing, not his scheme.

Yes indeed. Jones checked out awhile back.

[Digetydog]

Schemes are great, but what makes them work are great players. That was Jones' undoing, not his scheme.

I disagree.

When the RnS was in its heyday, most college defenses were built to defend offenses like the veer, the wishbone, and the "student body right." The crazy passing offenses of the time generally came out of pro sets. The Big State Schools took all of the best players that fit those offenses and the defenses. Running a RnS, you could recruit guys that nobody else wanted, you could spread out the field so the other team's size advantage didn't kill you, and you got to be the "one off" offense that was hard to prepare for.

With almost every team running some version of the spread, defenses are built to defend 5 WR sets. Plus, the "big" teams are recruiting the best offensive and defensive talent for the 5 WR set (See Baylor's amazing speed at WR). If you look at teams that run the spread well (Clemson), they adapt the system (run v pass) to fit the skills of their talent (in particular the QB). With the RnS, you cannot do that. With the RnS, you cannot throw a RS freshman like Johnny Football in there with any hope to succeed.

While recruiting was a problem, June's scheme was inflexible and a major liability.

[gord]

Schemes are great, but what makes them work are great players. That was Jones' undoing, not his scheme.

I disagree.

When the RnS was in its heyday, most college defenses were built to defend offenses like the veer, the wishbone, and the "student body right." The crazy passing offenses of the time generally came out of pro sets. The Big State Schools took all of the best players that fit those offenses and the defenses. Running a RnS, you could recruit guys that nobody else wanted, you could spread out the field so the other team's size advantage didn't kill you, and you got to be the "one off" offense that was hard to prepare for.

With almost every team running some version of the spread, defenses are built to defend 5 WR sets. Plus, the "big" teams are recruiting the best offensive and defensive talent for the 5 WR set (See Baylor's amazing speed at WR). If you look at teams that run the spread well (Clemson), they adapt the system (run v pass) to fit the skills of their talent (in particular the QB). With the RnS, you cannot do that. With the RnS, you cannot throw a RS freshman like Johnny Football in there with any hope to succeed.

While recruiting was a problem, June's scheme was inflexible and a major liability.

The fact that you disagree that the lack of talent is the main reason why SMU has struggled the last couple of years tells me you don't know much about what you're talking about. I'd also assume that from your breakdown of schemes that you enjoy talking in generalities that sound good in theory but actually mean nothing.

Which RnS heyday are you talking about? The one in the 80s and early 90s or the one a decade later when spread schemes were more prevalent? From 2001 to 2007 (Jones' last year at Hawaii), his teams finished in the top 10 in the nation in yards per play, including No. 1 in 2006 and 2007 when (gasp!) they had their best QB in their history and an NFL wide receiver.

When the talent level at SMU was at its highest (2009-11), we ranked 30th, 19th and 32nd in the nation in yards per play. Not great, but in our best year, with our best talent, we were a top 20 offense and at worst, a top-30 offense. In 2010, among teams that averaged 35 attempts or more per game, we were 10th in passing yards per attempt - and that's with a QB that was beaten out by someone else and had to transfer to an FCS school.

So Baylor has amazing speed at WR, but it's the scheme that allows them to score all of those points? That amazing speed at WR, plus RBs like Lache Seastrunk, plus Bryce Petty at QB is the reason why they're so succesful. How is it Houston is 102nd in the nation in total offense and 85th in scoring offense this year? They run the spread too. If running a spread offense was the key to success, everybody would run it and nobody would ever punt. Your point about defenses being built to defend 5 WR sets makes no sense: how are spread offenses working with other teams? And I'm not sure why you think it's impossible to throw a redshirt freshman in this offense and not have it be successful. Padron was a true sophomore in 2009 and Gilbert stepped right into this offense and started in his first year, and was even better in his second. Do you have any actual evidence with the points you try to make or are you throwing stuff out there and hoping nobody notices?

While last year was hard to watch on a lot of levels, the offense still had some productive games, and if you were watching, Gilbert ran a lot of zone-read keepers, which is something, according to you, isn't possible in a RnS offense. You should know that only the one calling the plays limits what plays a team runs, not the name of the offense.

Most everybody here agrees that Jones' inability to recruit at a high level was his downfall. You'll get no argument from me on that. We are worse at almost every offensive position now than 4-5 years ago. That, more than scheme, is the reason the program has fallen.

[PonySnob]

Please check the caliber of the teams June's Hawaii team was playing against when his offense was so prolific. He wasn't exactly rolling through the SEC. In his last year, I believe they played 3-4 teams with winning records and one of those gave the Warriors a serious case of butthurt.

[Digetydog]

Schemes are great, but what makes them work are great players. That was Jones' undoing, not his scheme.

I disagree.

When the RnS was in its heyday, most college defenses were built to defend offenses like the veer, the wishbone, and the "student body right." The crazy passing offenses of the time generally came out of pro sets. The Big State Schools took all of the best players that fit those offenses and the defenses. Running a RnS, you could recruit guys that nobody else wanted, you could spread out the field so the other team's size advantage didn't kill you, and you got to be the "one off" offense that was hard to prepare for.

With almost every team running some version of the spread, defenses are built to defend 5 WR sets. Plus, the "big" teams are recruiting the best offensive and defensive talent for the 5 WR set (See Baylor's amazing speed at WR). If you look at teams that run the spread well (Clemson), they adapt the system (run v pass) to fit the skills of their talent (in particular the QB). With the RnS, you cannot do that. With the RnS, you cannot throw a RS freshman like Johnny Football in there with any hope to succeed.

While recruiting was a problem, June's scheme was inflexible and a major liability.

The fact that you disagree that the lack of talent is the main reason why SMU has struggled the last couple of years tells me you don't know much about what you're talking about. I'd also assume that from your breakdown of schemes that you enjoy talking in generalities that sound good in theory but actually mean nothing.

Which RnS heyday are you talking about? The one in the 80s and early 90s or the one a decade later when spread schemes were more prevalent? From 2001 to 2007 (Jones' last year at Hawaii), his teams finished in the top 10 in the nation in yards per play, including No. 1 in 2006 and 2007 when (gasp!) they had their best QB in their history and an NFL wide receiver.

When the talent level at SMU was at its highest (2009-11), we ranked 30th, 19th and 32nd in the nation in yards per play. Not great, but in our best year, with our best talent, we were a top 20 offense and at worst, a top-30 offense. In 2010, among teams that averaged 35 attempts or more per game, we were 10th in passing yards per attempt - and that's with a QB that was beaten out by someone else and had to transfer to an FCS school.

So Baylor has amazing speed at WR, but it's the scheme that allows them to score all of those points? That amazing speed at WR, plus RBs like Lache Seastrunk, plus Bryce Petty at QB is the reason why they're so succesful. How is it Houston is 102nd in the nation in total offense and 85th in scoring offense this year? They run the spread too. If running a spread offense was the key to success, everybody would run it and nobody would ever punt. Your point about defenses being built to defend 5 WR sets makes no sense: how are spread offenses working with other teams? And I'm not sure why you think it's impossible to throw a redshirt freshman in this offense and not have it be successful. Padron was a true sophomore in 2009 and Gilbert stepped right into this offense and started in his first year, and was even better in his second. Do you have any actual evidence with the points you try to make or are you throwing stuff out there and hoping nobody notices?

While last year was hard to watch on a lot of levels, the offense still had some productive games, and if you were watching, Gilbert ran a lot of zone-read keepers, which is something, according to you, isn't possible in a RnS offense. You should know that only the one calling the plays limits what plays a team runs, not the name of the offense.

Most everybody here agrees that Jones' inability to recruit at a high level was his downfall. You'll get no argument from me on that. We are worse at almost every offensive position now than 4-5 years ago. That, more than scheme, is the reason the program has fallen.

I never said talent wasn't a problem -it was and is a problem. A big problem. My point is only that the scheme is outdated and a liability. In particular, the system and/or June are totally inflexible.

[gord]

I never said talent wasn't a problem -it was and is a problem. A big problem. My point is only that the scheme is outdated and a liability. In particular, the system and/or June are totally inflexible.

You still haven't explained how the offense is outdated and a liability. And you must have missed where I said the person calling the plays is the only one who is responsible for an offense being inflexible, not the offense itself.

[Digetydog]

I never said talent wasn't a problem -it was and is a problem. A big problem. My point is only that the scheme is outdated and a liability. In particular, the system and/or June are totally inflexible.

You still haven't explained how the offense is outdated and a liability. And you must have missed where I said the person calling the plays is the only one who is responsible for an offense being inflexible, not the offense itself.

1) you need a QB who has mastered all the reads and who is on the same page as the WRs. Other offenses make things easier for young QBs by simplifying the reads.
2) the lack of a TE makes the RNS a liability in the red zone
3) the lack of 2 back sets limits running options
4) the lack of any kind of power running game makes it predictable
5) the RnS really doesn't have the QB run options that Mumme brought with him

If it was so good, why doesn't anyone else use it? College, Pro, HS?