All Kentucky is talking about today ...

[carolsmu]

Actually that was kind of my point. Blew an 18-point lead to Southern, not a very good team. There goes confidence for next two games
Alabama STate (who wound up in NIT) and Centenary (who Beat Texas Tech last year). And the later loss to Stephen F. Austin who won at Oklahoma last year and wound up in NIT also.

Just dangerous to play schools like that esp with a REALLY young team.

JMO but In retrospect would have been better to schedule some Top 30 teams (who would gladly have played SMU after looking at their young roster) and gotten crushed. I think the team would not have suffered the temporary loss of confidence they did after losing to some "no-names" Getting crushed by Memphis helped the team far more than a close loss to a pretty darn good SF Austin team

[PonyDoh]

Great quote from the UVA board on Kentucky's commit:

"They don't want to lose him late to SMU and DohMatt"

http://www.thesabre.com/message_board/b ... 020232.php

DohMatt is a phenomenal nickname and pretty much how the ACC will view ol'Doh, until he gets to the dance consistently

Why is that?

b/c they mean it as doormat

I knew that. Just wondered why you thought it was phenomenal.

Well, considering their frame of reference, it's on point. I love Doh for SMU, but his tenure at UNC was comical at best. The nickname fits the man during that tenure

Doherty was young a young and inexperienced HC at UNC with only 1 year of HC experience. His problems were related more to the alienation of the team than his coaching. I think most of his problems were well documented.

PonyDoh keeps saying he's a horrible on the court coach but that he can recruit. I'm willing to give someone a pass for EARLY in their career for not being up to ACC on the court coaching standards. I'd love some analysis/examples of his poor coaching. I'd also like to see PonyDoh's analysis on whether or not he's improved those problems now that he's no longer in his 2nd, 3rd and 4th year coaching at the highest profile job in college bb. Please don't just say he lost to Prairie View or similar general comments...I can just as easily make a broad statement that he was playing with a ton of freshman.

Read my earlier response, Alaric. Doh's nickname was given b/c he turned a Top 3 position in all of America into a cellar-dweller. There is no debating that. As you referenced, the biggest reason for this was his mismanagement of not only the roster, but the ENTIRE program. His bench coaching is questionable, but its far from the reason he's hasn't really succeeded yet, as a D1 head coach. He literally turned the entire "Carolina family' against him, starting w/Dean Smith. He was a bull in a china shop, fired long standing administrators, personal secretaries, the entire coaching staff etc.

Then, he turned his roster against him, and their families, after recruiting many of them. He's jekyll & hyde when it comes to recruiting a kid, and relating to a kid after he gets that kid on campus. The Carolina roster was turned upside down, much like SMU's roster has been turned upside down. Don't get me wrong, much of it is in an effort to gather better talent, but the methods have always been questionable.

He's notorious for intentionally running kids off, sometimes decent kids that could contribute and work hard, not just malcontents. Nothing illegal about it, but its ethically borderline and many schools ADs have unilateral rule, that a coach can't run off a kid that is performing in the classroom & trying on the floor, just to clear 'cap space.' I guess we'll see what happens this Fall w/the roster, won't we.

As for coaching, may I point you to Doh's inability to get any of his teams to defend the arc. No matter how hard he physically & mentally beats them down, conditions them, as of now, they just can't play shut down perimeter man, and are incapable of dropping back into an effective zone. Close to 35% of the opposing teams points were off of 3pt shots. That effectively makes SMU one of the 30 worst teams in the country at defending the trey. Playing bad team defense is coaching. Haphazard roster maintenance is the norm. Letting players determine if they are redshirting or not, is laughable.

Look, I like Doh, it may not seem that way to you, but its true. College hoops is about talent acquisition, plain and simple. Even chokers get their day in the sun if they amass enough ballers. All I'm asking of the man is to have a plan, work the plan, and don't screw good kids in the process. Being an X & O guy means nothing if you don't have the horses. I have faith that Doh is finding some undervalued players and will turn the corner.

All that said, I think its very difficult for a zebra to change his stripes. Many of the same 'program' issues that surrounded Doh at previous stops, exist on the Hilltop. Those close to the program will tell you as much. Meanwhile, we grab quality recruits, see a brighter future, and have faith in a politicians smile & greasy palm. That's all wonderful, just don't convince yourself that's the only thing happening w/in the program

[gostangs]

I dont think it is a bad thing to expect performance in return for the free ride. If the "run off" thing is true, I'm not sure that pressure is a negative at all.

Doh has been the first one to point out his mistakes at UNC - he is very open publically about what he wishes he had done differently. That alone makes him a bigger man then most coaches who cannot admit they ever made a mistake (a certain crazy coot who just left TT comes to mind).

I like what we have seen in the way of player development so far, although it is early. Lots we dont know but I think the early returns are positive.

[mathman]

He's notorious for intentionally running kids off, sometimes decent kids that could contribute and work hard, not just malcontents. Nothing illegal about it, but its ethically borderline and many schools ADs have unilateral rule, that a coach can't run off a kid that is performing in the classroom & trying on the floor, just to clear 'cap space.' I guess we'll see what happens this Fall w/the roster, won't we.[/quote]

Guess your ACC people didn't get your memo on that.


http://www.dailyprogress.com/cdp/sports ... air/21246/

[Alaric]

Read my earlier response, Alaric. Doh's nickname was given b/c he turned a Top 3 position in all of America into a cellar-dweller. There is no debating that. As you referenced, the biggest reason for this was his mismanagement of not only the roster, but the ENTIRE program. His bench coaching is questionable, but its far from the reason he's hasn't really succeeded yet, as a D1 head coach. He literally turned the entire "Carolina family' against him, starting w/Dean Smith. He was a bull in a china shop, fired long standing administrators, personal secretaries, the entire coaching staff etc...As for coaching, may I point you to Doh's inability to get any of his teams to defend the arc. No matter how hard he physically & mentally beats them down, conditions them, as of now, they just can't play shut down perimeter man, and are incapable of dropping back into an effective zone. Close to 35% of the opposing teams points were off of 3pt shots. That effectively makes SMU one of the 30 worst teams in the country at defending the trey. Playing bad team defense is coaching. Haphazard roster maintenance is the norm. Letting players determine if they are redshirting or not, is laughable.

I read your earlier posts PonyDoh...we all know about Doherty's past mismanagement. He's open about that. Re-read my post - I clearly asked YOU about ON the court problems. You eventually address my concern but only that he's not a good coach of perimeter defense. I specifically asked the question b/c you harp on his poor game day coaching (referencing ACC sources). In games I've watched, I've disagreed on some player combinations he's made, clock mgmt decisions, etc but I've also seen some good coaching too. A lot of the mistakes, especially this past year, I'm willing to chalk up to a young team (which isn't an excuse that will fly forever). For the record I've also had some disagreements with about every coach I've ever watched...easy to criticize from the couch. I really don't think the majority of his problems at UNC were game day management.

Like you rehashed in your post, it was the fact that he was way too quick to burn bridges. Told returning players they didn't play well for Guthridge (who the f does that). And then the temper. All that being said, people do change, they mellow with age & if they're smart, they realize what burned them in the past and they try not to repeat the mistakes.

If he becomes a kinder, gentler, better manager of people, I think he really answers your biggest problems. You're great with him as a talent accumulator and I think he's more than adequate as a game day coach.

[PonyDoh]

All that being said, people do change, they mellow with age & if they're smart, they realize what burned them in the past and they try not to repeat the mistakes.

If he becomes a kinder, gentler, better manager of people, I think he really answers your biggest problems. You're great with him as a talent accumulator and I think he's more than adequate as a game day coach.

Ok, so you think he's an adequate bench coach, and I like him as a recruiter. What about many of the same red flags around the program at SMU, that existed at Carolina? Player relations? Roster management? Temper? All these things still exist. Admitting problems is one thing, actually making change is another.

[PonyDoh]

He's notorious for intentionally running kids off, sometimes decent kids that could contribute and work hard, not just malcontents. Nothing illegal about it, but its ethically borderline and many schools ADs have unilateral rule, that a coach can't run off a kid that is performing in the classroom & trying on the floor, just to clear 'cap space.' I guess we'll see what happens this Fall w/the roster, won't we.

Guess your ACC people didn't get your memo on that.


http://www.dailyprogress.com/cdp/sports ... air/21246/[/quote]

Don't ask me to go to the wall for Leitao, he's straight out of Calhouns coaching tree. Calhoun is the master at running kids off. Beyond that, just b/c Leitao said it, doesn't mean the AD would have allowed it. Trying to get kids to move on, telling them their skillset is more appropriate for a different level, is slightly different then just not renewing a ship.

[mathman]

He's notorious for intentionally running kids off, sometimes decent kids that could contribute and work hard, not just malcontents. Nothing illegal about it, but its ethically borderline and many schools ADs have unilateral rule, that a coach can't run off a kid that is performing in the classroom & trying on the floor, just to clear 'cap space.' I guess we'll see what happens this Fall w/the roster, won't we.

Guess your ACC people didn't get your memo on that.


http://www.dailyprogress.com/cdp/sports ... air/21246/

Don't ask me to go to the wall for Leitao, he's straight out of Calhouns coaching tree. Calhoun is the master at running kids off. Beyond that, just b/c Leitao said it, doesn't mean the AD would have allowed it. Trying to get kids to move on, telling them their skillset is more appropriate for a different level, is slightly different then just not renewing a ship.[/quote]
I understand your concerns but tend to agree with Alaric. At least I hope he is right. You have been consistent in your posts and I like that. I just really don't care what the ACC people think about what happened years ago and am hoping for a long successful run by Doh here.

[Alaric]

All that being said, people do change, they mellow with age & if they're smart, they realize what burned them in the past and they try not to repeat the mistakes.

If he becomes a kinder, gentler, better manager of people, I think he really answers your biggest problems. You're great with him as a talent accumulator and I think he's more than adequate as a game day coach.

Ok, so you think he's an adequate bench coach, and I like him as a recruiter. What about many of the same red flags around the program at SMU, that existed at Carolina? Player relations? Roster management? Temper? All these things still exist. Admitting problems is one thing, actually making change is another.

PD, I see flashes of those same problems. Let's just say that I've got my fingers crossed that Doherty's working on these issues. He'd be stupid not to...I'm a very different person than I was 10 years ago.

It's an interesting dynamic with Doherty who seems to have somewhat bought into the mindset that it's better to be feared than loved and June Jones who says that treating people well is a big part of his success (no cursing, no yelling rules, etc) who tries to make his organization a big happy family. Hopefully Doherty keeps his eyes on JJ's methods and learns. I'M ALSO BIASED KNOWING THAT IF HE DOES CHANGE HIS DEMEANOR IT'S BEST FOR SMU

[itsaputon]

Pony,

As an alum of UNC, I respectfully ask you to stick to discussing SMU basketball as you obviously don't know squat about Matt's tenure at my alma mater.

[CalallenStang]

Pony,

As an alum of UNC, I respectfully ask you to stick to discussing SMU basketball as you obviously don't know squat about Matt's tenure at my alma mater.

Care to enlighten us?

[friarwolf]

I do wish he would bring in a Tex Winter type assistant that could balance him out a little..................

[itsaputon]

Calallen,

Sure I'll play. Tonight we'll look at this passage by Pony:

"He literally turned the entire "Carolina family' against him, starting w/Dean Smith. He was a bull in a china shop, fired long standing administrators, personal secretaries, the entire coaching staff etc. "

Oh where to begin? Let's see how about DES. Matt did not "turn" Dean Smith against him. In fact, DES was more supportive of Matt in his last year than at any other time. Although, I personally believe that it may not have been as genuine as appeared.

Mr. Smith made it known both publicly and privately that Matt was not his 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or possibly 5th choice for the job. In other words, dean weren't happy with his(and I mean that literally) AD over the hiring of Matt.

Now onto the firings. To my knowledge there were two staff members who were fired. One was involved in an illegal transaction that involved money owed to a former player. The other was a dear dear secretary that everyone loved. However, over the 30 plus years of des and Gut's tenure, there were some itsy bitsy violations that were allowed. One was the abundance of home baked goodies available for the players, in the basketball office. Matt felt, and rightly so, that the mean ole NCAA might decide to take a little more active interest in the UNC basketball office, now that it was being run by a coach with a whopping 1 year of head coaching experience. He explained this dilemma to the dear dear employee, and asked that she refrain from providing the goodies. He explained the situation to his team, and they were less than pleased. LO and Behold, the goodies started showing up again, just in a more discreet area of the office. When Matt found out, he approached the dear dear employee and explained that if the practice did not cease, her job would. She decided to test that theory and lost her job.

The firing of the "entire coaching staff" has long been one of my personal favorites. Just so we are clear on the facts. Matt made it clear to [deleted] Badodor. upon first contact that he would not consider the UNC job, unless it included his staff at ND. He told dickie that he had just had his entire staff move their families to South Bend and he would not leave them "hung out to dry." Therefore, Matt did not fire anyone, he was informed that none of the current UNC staff would be retained.

Matt's mistake was believing that [deleted] badodor was a vertebrate and that the AD would be supportive during the tough years of his tenure(2nd-no talent and 3rd-extremely young years).

That's a start anyway, and we've only addressed two sentences of Pony's post!!!!

TTFN

[PonyDoh]

Calallen,

Sure I'll play. Tonight we'll look at this passage by Pony:

"He literally turned the entire "Carolina family' against him, starting w/Dean Smith. He was a bull in a china shop, fired long standing administrators, personal secretaries, the entire coaching staff etc. "

Oh where to begin? Let's see how about DES. Matt did not "turn" Dean Smith against him. In fact, DES was more supportive of Matt in his last year than at any other time. Although, I personally believe that it may not have been as genuine as appeared.

Mr. Smith made it known both publicly and privately that Matt was not his 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or possibly 5th choice for the job. In other words, dean weren't happy with his(and I mean that literally) AD over the hiring of Matt.

Now onto the firings. To my knowledge there were two staff members who were fired. One was involved in an illegal transaction that involved money owed to a former player. The other was a dear dear secretary that everyone loved. However, over the 30 plus years of des and Gut's tenure, there were some itsy bitsy violations that were allowed. One was the abundance of home baked goodies available for the players, in the basketball office. Matt felt, and rightly so, that the mean ole NCAA might decide to take a little more active interest in the UNC basketball office, now that it was being run by a coach with a whopping 1 year of head coaching experience. He explained this dilemma to the dear dear employee, and asked that she refrain from providing the goodies. He explained the situation to his team, and they were less than pleased. LO and Behold, the goodies started showing up again, just in a more discreet area of the office. When Matt found out, he approached the dear dear employee and explained that if the practice did not cease, her job would. She decided to test that theory and lost her job.

The firing of the "entire coaching staff" has long been one of my personal favorites. Just so we are clear on the facts. Matt made it clear to [deleted] Badodor. upon first contact that he would not consider the UNC job, unless it included his staff at ND. He told dickie that he had just had his entire staff move their families to South Bend and he would not leave them "hung out to dry." Therefore, Matt did not fire anyone, he was informed that none of the current UNC staff would be retained.

Matt's mistake was believing that [deleted] badodor was a vertebrate and that the AD would be supportive during the tough years of his tenure(2nd-no talent and 3rd-extremely young years).

That's a start anyway, and we've only addressed two sentences of Pony's post!!!!

TTFN

Wow, you addressed nothing. You stated that Dean didn't have Doh as one his top choices, which is true. Also, that Dean wasn't particularly supportive of young Doh, again something we all know. He may not have turned on Doh, b/c Dean never liked or approved of Doh, how is that any better? All that said, after the hire, and the original shifting of targets in the first recruiting class, Dean gave Doh a chance. That lasted about a day, and Dean was back to disliking Doh. He had a multitude of sit downs w/Doh over his temper, roster management, and the Carolina way. To say he was supportive behind the scenes is bold faced.

As to your 2nd point, Doh fired two long time, much loved, staffers over nothing. Hilarious, especially when I personally know the story behind Ray Felton/John Rhodes, which makes free baked goods seem pretty damn mild. The Jawad Williams recruitment could have used some 409 to clean it up as well. Yet, here you are spouting off about free cookies getting the new staff in trouble. LOL.

[deleted] Baddour is spineless, but to say he didn't have cause is gold, Jerry. Doh didn't have the support of Dean, the elite Rams Club donors(believe me, I know), his players, their parents or the extended family. Why would Baddour take that on that uphill battle w/no tangible results in his back pocket?

BTW, being an alumni of Chapel Hill, in this debate, leaves you w/a knife at a gunfight. During this stretch, I had 'industry' perspective, and no axe to grind. Do yourself a favor and don't romanticize Doh at UNC, it is what it is, and really has nothing to do w/this program, other then a few red flags, and his consistent excellence on the trail.