Interesting Doh Quote

[Bergermeister]

Chalk up 4 solid losing seasons to Matt Doherty. We're really not getting better - just treading water. We oughta be sweeping the Texas State series in season 4 and be better than 8th place in a 12-team conference - I expected more for $450,000.00 per year. You can give him another season but it will just be more of the same --- I guess if I had a "real" life I would do something exciting instead of going to the games.

[SoCal_Pony]

Whether you guys believe it or not, we still have admin & admission issues in hoops that many, if not most, other schools in CUSA don't have. Time and again I'm told we can't recruit legit ballers b/c of grades. BCG wouldn't be able to just scour JUCOS and diploma mills to sign kids, if they weren't living up to their end of the bargain in the classroom

PonyDoh,

Your comments seem to contradict what Stallion has stated about our Model being fixed. Are you saying BB has admissions/grades obstacles that do not exist in FB?

Also, I would tend to agree with your comments about BCG, yet Prof X says SO wants him. What does that mean exactly? Is it possible that SO wants to lower admission policies to C-USA levels as part of the hiring of BCG. Why bring him in if you hand-cuff him from the start? SO is smarter than that.

[PonyDoh]

Whether you guys believe it or not, we still have admin & admission issues in hoops that many, if not most, other schools in CUSA don't have. Time and again I'm told we can't recruit legit ballers b/c of grades. BCG wouldn't be able to just scour JUCOS and diploma mills to sign kids, if they weren't living up to their end of the bargain in the classroom

PonyDoh,

Your comments seem to contradict what Stallion has stated about our Model being fixed. Are you saying BB has admissions/grades obstacles that do not exist in FB?

Also, I would tend to agree with your comments about BCG, yet Prof X says SO wants him. What does that mean exactly? Is it possible that SO wants to lower admission policies to C-USA levels as part of the hiring of BCG. Why bring him in if you hand-cuff him from the start? SO is smarter than that.

I'm not going to speak for football, but their are still admissions issues from transfer credits, to poor academic support, to lack of athletic majors, to lack of cooperation between athletics & scheduling( especially in a 2 semester sport), not to mention requiring a higher GPA then the NCAA requires. A move that SMU passed w/o consulting the AD etc. W/o starting a [deleted] contest, men's hoops wouldn't even be allowed to talk to a Kenny Turner type, much less admit him.

When has Orsini proven smarter then anyone when it comes to hoops?

[DickerJames]

[/quoteWe're really not getting better - just treading water.

Actually, we have gotten worse. His first year here he matched his predecessors win total from the previous year and then the wheels came off.......

[SoCal_Pony]

PonyDoh,

Your comments seem to contradict what Stallion has stated about our Model being fixed. Are you saying BB has admissions/grades obstacles that do not exist in FB?

Also, I would tend to agree with your comments about BCG, yet Prof X says SO wants him. What does that mean exactly? Is it possible that SO wants to lower admission policies to C-USA levels as part of the hiring of BCG. Why bring him in if you hand-cuff him from the start? SO is smarter than that.

I'm not going to speak for football, but their are still admissions issues from transfer credits, to poor academic support, to lack of athletic majors, to lack of cooperation between athletics & scheduling( especially in a 2 semester sport), not to mention requiring a higher GPA then the NCAA requires. A move that SMU passed w/o consulting the AD etc. W/o starting a [deleted] contest, men's hoops wouldn't even be allowed to talk to a Kenny Turner type, much less admit him.

When has Orsini proven smarter then anyone when it comes to hoops?

Stallion says we have leveled the playing field although it appears to me that we still have an inordinate amount of players with eligibility issues which speaks to your complaint about academic support / lack of athletic majors. Would appreciate Stallion’s comments on this.

As to your SO comment….very funny.

[PonyDoh]

PonyDoh,

Your comments seem to contradict what Stallion has stated about our Model being fixed. Are you saying BB has admissions/grades obstacles that do not exist in FB?

Also, I would tend to agree with your comments about BCG, yet Prof X says SO wants him. What does that mean exactly? Is it possible that SO wants to lower admission policies to C-USA levels as part of the hiring of BCG. Why bring him in if you hand-cuff him from the start? SO is smarter than that.

I'm not going to speak for football, but their are still admissions issues from transfer credits, to poor academic support, to lack of athletic majors, to lack of cooperation between athletics & scheduling( especially in a 2 semester sport), not to mention requiring a higher GPA then the NCAA requires. A move that SMU passed w/o consulting the AD etc. W/o starting a [deleted] contest, men's hoops wouldn't even be allowed to talk to a Kenny Turner type, much less admit him.

When has Orsini proven smarter then anyone when it comes to hoops?

Stallion says we have leveled the playing field although it appears to me that we still have an inordinate amount of players with eligibility issues which speaks to your complaint about academic support / lack of athletic majors. Would appreciate Stallion’s comments on this.

As to your SO comment….very funny.

Unfortunately, I don't find the SO comment very funny, just true

[Charleston Pony]

can't underestimate the effect all those empty seats have on the decision whether to retain existing coaches. if I'm not mistaken, attendance has dropped steadily since the Doherty era began

[Stallion]

SMU's best BB player got a GED. There maybe some problems in transfer credits that don't transfer-if you notice a lot of these kids are going to Community Colleges and JUCOs when they transfer instead of going straight to SMU but reports are that Shawnbray McNeil and the kid from Mohammed Faye were on academic probation when they transfered. SMU signed Bennie Rhodes who reportedly was a borderline academic qualifier.

SMU signed more academic non-qualifiers in Football than any school in Texas. They sure didn't try to go anywhere else suggesting that the non-qualifiers would have been non-qualifiers everywhere. McNeil slipped through the minimum qualification levels. We got a bunch of Prep School guys several of which have limited English background which is probably why they went to the Prep School route. We had a prep school guy graduate last year that the academic counselor considered a miracle.

We're signing a bunch of JUCOs in Basketball and Football several of which were non-qualifiers out of high school. We are signing second semester JUCOs meaning that they were non-qualifiers who had to graduate from a JUCO to become eligible at a Division 1A school. Apparently SMU is considering admitting a felon who graduated with a GED to its football program.

I just don't see substantial academic requirements that are particularly unique to SMU that is in anyway a legitimate excuse. A key indicator to me is I don't see football recruits who are known academic risks backing away from SMU in the closing days before signing date-and I follow this pretty close-in fact if anything I see academic risks heading toward SMU instead. I don't follow Basketball as close but I do follow more than most and I can't think of an example of a kid who was turned down by SMU that qualified at another Division 1A school.

Now NCAA rules do not allow credits to transfer to an athletic program if such credits don't transfer for regular students-I'm sure that's probably what he talking about if its academic related. Probably our biggest remaining hurdle are finding majors to keep athletes eligible-some schools specialize in this. Bottom Line-SMU went to a bowl last year with at least 6 major contributors in categories of students that were rarely availiable to SMU in the past-Doherty is having a bigger problem getting the job done

[PonyDoh]

SMU's best BB player got a GED. There maybe some problems in transfer credits that don't transfer-if you notice a lot of these kids are going to Community Colleges and JUCOs when they transfer instead of going straight to SMU but reports are that Shawnbray McNeil and the kid from Mohammed Faye were on academic probation when they transfered. SMU signed Bennie Rhodes who reportedly was a borderline academic qualifier.

SMU signed more academic non-qualifiers in Football than any school in Texas. They sure didn't try to go anywhere else suggesting that the non-qualifiers would have been non-qualifiers everywhere. McNeil slipped through the minimum qualification levels. We got a bunch of Prep School guys several of which have limited English background which is probably why they went to the Prep School route. We had a prep school guy graduate last year that the academic counselor considered a miracle.

We're signing a bunch of JUCOs in Basketball and Football several of which were non-qualifiers out of high school. We are signing second semester JUCOs meaning that they were non-qualifiers who had to graduate from a JUCO to become eligible at a Division 1A school. Apparently SMU is considering admitting a felon who graduated with a GED to its football program.

I just don't see substantial academic requirements that are particularly unique to SMU that is in anyway a legitimate excuse. A key indicator to me is I don't see football recruits who are known academic risks backing away from SMU in the closing days before signing date-and I follow this pretty close-in fact if anything I see academic risks heading toward SMU instead. I don't follow Basketball as close but I do follow more than most and I can't think of an example of a kid who was turned down by SMU that qualified at another Division 1A school.

Now NCAA rules do not allow credits to transfer to an athletic program if such credits don't transfer for regular students-I'm sure that's probably what he talking about if its academic related. Probably our biggest remaining hurdle are finding majors to keep athletes eligible-some schools specialize in this. Bottom Line-SMU went to a bowl last year with at least 6 major contributors in categories of students that were rarely availiable to SMU in the past-Doherty is having a bigger problem getting the job done

Like I said, I'm not going to vouch for football, and this thread is about Doh saying 'infrastructure issues still exist,' not a comparison of football and hoops. Suffice it to say, basketball can't recruit tons of players that qualify at other schools. I will gladly give you an extended list via PM, but won't lay it down on a free board. Two local examples that will probably/miraculously qualify are KC Ross Miller & Tony Mitchell, neither of which we could have touched w/a 10 foot pole. We aren't even allowed to sniff God's Academy. There are JUCOs scheduled to graduate that SMU hoops can't touch for grade reasons, see Kendall Durant.

Suffice it to say the hoops staff was somewhat shocked that Turner was a possibility for football, b/c he wouldn't be for basketball. Also, we have very few JUCOs in hoops that weren't qualified out of high school. Clinkscales, Luttman and Pats were all qualified heading to JUCO, though some amateurism issues exist w/Pats. Stargell Love is headed to Baylor, we couldn't admit him after seeing his transcripts. We're recruiting Calvin Newell, but his transcripts are reportedly sketchy by SMU standards, but he'll qualify and end up somewhere mid to high major. You wouldn't believe how many kids we can't go to the wall for b/c they can't get in, but end up elsewhere and qualify.

Again, I'm not an expert on what is happening on the football side, but I know we're hamstrung on the hoops side. The points I mentioned were legit infrastructure issues that need addressing and weren't meant as excuses, but to say we're on an equal playing field in basketball, w/regards to who we can bring in, just isn't so. I can seriously name 20 plus kids just in '10 that we couldn't recruit that will probably be eligible elsewhere

[Stallion]

well I'm sure that's true with regard to God's Academy, Christian Life. Genesis One, Lutheran Christian and other schools considered by many as diploma mills. I know those kids get in elsewhere but I'm not going to get upset with that. I often say that SMU should basically recruit within the letter and SPIRIT of NCAA rules-in my mind that excludes diploma mills. We've lost a few like that-aren't there kids at Hawaii (Roderick Fleming) and UAB(Gary Flowers) from local schools that meet that definition. But honestly, I see multiple SMU commitments from minimum qualifiers, late qualifiers, non-qualifiers, JUCOs, late JUCO qualifiers, JUCO transfers who failed to qualify out of high school, 2nd semester JUCOs that have to graduate, transfers on academic probation, transfers who were admitted with grades below SMU standards and have to be admitted by university exception. and foreign Prep School players with limited English skills, kids without high school diplomas/GEDs. I would post almost immediately if I ever read information indicating that a single SMU recruit had not admitted that was likely to qualify. But I can't because I don't know of a single player that fits that description. ( I guess other than Gary Flowers and Roderick Fleming mentioned above)Nobody else has posted any article indicting that either. I haven't even read rumors of such recruits on other school's message board where you often find such rumors. But I'd listen if somebody wants to identify the issues-as I said I think there maybe some Tranfer credit issues BECAUSE by NCAA rules transfer credit rules must be applied consistently among all students. And to be fair to Doherty I can not vouch for all those school policies being in place more than say the last 2 years-they don't announce these types of things but its been pretty obvious in the last 2 years that we are commiting a much different profile in each of the academic risk categories I listed above

[RedTapestry]

went back to find the doh quote I posted from the DMN when JJ was hired.
---—-----------------------------



Doherty said he's already felt the bump Jones' hire is giving to SMU athletics as a whole.

"We’re serious about athletics," Doherty said. "I think everybody in the country knows it now. There’s an infrastructure that is rapidly being put in place that will help us bring in the players we need to bring in to be successful.

"...It raised the profile of everything here. You can’t bring in a coach like June Jones without giving him the infrastructure to be successful. There’s got to be things in place, whether it be marketing, academic support, admissions, curriculum. Otherwise, it’s foolish. It’s like buying a Mercedes and putting an AM radio in. There’s going to be a sweet stereo and nice, leather seats."

[lwjr]

Are you guys saying most of these kids don't or won't make the grades that are neccesary to get into SMU? That is just the way it is with the basketball athletes? They all think they are going to the NBA to make millions? Is that how I am to I interpret what you are basically saying?

[RE Tycoon]

Suffice it to say the hoops staff was somewhat shocked that Turner was a possibility for football, b/c he wouldn't be for basketball.

Again, I'm not an expert on what is happening on the football side, but I know we're hamstrung on the hoops side.

This makes no sense. If you are correct about football playing by different rules, then that would mean SMU is cutting of it's nose to spite it's face, and I just can't believe that is happening (besides Stallion's point about diploma mills which I believe is unique to basketball?).

I think the real answer is Doh is taking a page from the book every former coach since the death penalty has used and that is blame the infrastructure for his failure to produce a winner. According to my uneducated, unconnected observations they have all had a fair argument, whereas Doh does not. You claim to be an insider within the bball program (and I'm not doubting you), so you are being fed the company line.

When Doh is ultimately fired, I have no doubt he will sound a lot like Bennett did in his farewell speech. This time I'm not so sure that argument holds water.

[PonyDoh]

Suffice it to say the hoops staff was somewhat shocked that Turner was a possibility for football, b/c he wouldn't be for basketball.

Again, I'm not an expert on what is happening on the football side, but I know we're hamstrung on the hoops side.

This makes no sense. If you are correct about football playing by different rules, then that would mean SMU is cutting of it's nose to spite it's face, and I just can't believe that is happening (besides Stallion's point about diploma mills which I believe is unique to basketball?).

I think the real answer is Doh is taking a page from the book every former coach since the death penalty has used and that is blame the infrastructure for his failure to produce a winner. According to my uneducated, unconnected observations they have all had a fair argument, whereas Doh does not. You claim to be an insider within the bball program (and I'm not doubting you), so you are being fed the company line.

When Doh is ultimately fired, I have no doubt he will sound a lot like Bennett did in his farewell speech. This time I'm not so sure that argument holds water.

Again, I'm not using 'infrastructure' as an excuse, just pointing out that we do have issues that still need addressing to make this a level playing field in basketball. Basketball recruiting is a very different beast then football recruiting, and so many people try to make this an apples to apples argument, and it's just not. This isn't just about diploma mills, it's about preps, kids that have been to 3 or 4 different schools etc. Transfer credits, elevated GPA for admissions etc. I'm not being fed the company line b/c I know who we recruit, who we don't, and why. I don't claim to be an insider into SMU, as much as basketball industry guy, which is where most of info derives. This stuff isn't some major secret. Beyond that, from a common sense standpoint, why would we balk on recruiting legit kids that have interest, and fit personnel needs, if their wasn't a good reason?

[RE Tycoon]

Beyond that, from a common sense standpoint, why would we balk on recruiting legit kids that have interest, and fit personnel needs, if their wasn't a good reason?

I'm with you, but my question is similar to yours. Why would they have different standards for bball and fball?