Would you rather.....?

[Hoop Fan]

well, its pretty much a joke to suggest Doh is a developer of players, but ok. We all know he hangs his hat on being a recruiter first and foremost. Let's for a minute say he developed Papa. What about the other 6 players in that class that everyone said was so great at the time, who he WAS clearly responsible for recruiting? How did they develop? Other than Papa, it aint pretty.

I think Nyakundi(all league as a junior) turned out Ok, and of course Dia, a 2 time all league kid, first team this year, DPOY, and all time great big at SMU. How many all league kids did you want out of that class? again, who is debating you, other than shooting down some of your inane arguments. It was too big a class, it had some real personality issues, and some non-performers. It also yielded two big time players for us. Walker and Harp were career role players that helped as seniors.

uh, i didn't bring it up. Here's the great thing about a message thread, its in black and white. I offered a counterpoint to the ridiculous notion that anyone failed after two years. very ironic. If you were really here for honest debate, you would have jumped on that yourself. However, its clear you are a bit too close to mangino and company and by extension Doh. Why shouldn't Doh be judged by the same standards Tubbs was, whatever those were? Violations included.

[Hoop Fan]

well, its pretty much a joke to suggest Doh is a developer of players, but ok. We all know he hangs his hat on being a recruiter first and foremost. Let's for a minute say he developed Papa. What about the other 6 players in that class that everyone said was so great at the time, who he WAS clearly responsible for recruiting? How did they develop? Other than Papa, it aint pretty.

I think Nyakundi(all league as a junior) turned out Ok, and of course Dia, a 2 time all league kid, first team this year, DPOY, and all time great big at SMU. How many all league kids did you want out of that class? again, who is debating you, other than shooting down some of your inane arguments. It was too big a class, it had some real personality issues, and some non-performers. It also yielded two big time players for us. Walker and Harp were career role players that helped as seniors.

you can't keep your arguments straight can you? Now we have 2 all league kids and Pop is an all time great, and we have some nice role players? Yet no one could have expected more than 10 wins according to you out of this group and the coaches did a masterful job, blah, blah blah? whatever suits your argument of the day.

[Real Talk]

"Hey Jimmy T...congrats on your new head coaching job! You have exactly one recruiting class to prove your worth to me. Oh...and BTW...you get one year to show results then we're carting you out for a public lynching."

To say he wasnt a D1 coach is as wrong to assume as Pitino wldve won in 98. (good point MM)
If I had the time/energy...Id google all the great coaches records after year2. And I bet they werent in such desirable places as SMU.

It isnt a comparison of Doh vs Tubbs to me as judging/measuring 2 men by different sticks. If you judged Doh by the same standard as Tubbs...he's 3 years into retirement right now. We will never know what Tubbs wldve been if you judged him by Dohs standard. End of story.

[RGV Pony]

I don't think anyone is disputing that SMU botched the Tubbs situation

[hoopmanx]

well, its pretty much a joke to suggest Doh is a developer of players, but ok. We all know he hangs his hat on being a recruiter first and foremost. Let's for a minute say he developed Papa. What about the other 6 players in that class that everyone said was so great at the time, who he WAS clearly responsible for recruiting? How did they develop? Other than Papa, it aint pretty.

I think Nyakundi(all league as a junior) turned out Ok, and of course Dia, a 2 time all league kid, first team this year, DPOY, and all time great big at SMU. How many all league kids did you want out of that class? again, who is debating you, other than shooting down some of your inane arguments. It was too big a class, it had some real personality issues, and some non-performers. It also yielded two big time players for us. Walker and Harp were career role players that helped as seniors.

uh, i didn't bring it up. Here's the great thing about a message thread, its in black and white. I offered a counterpoint to the ridiculous notion that anyone failed after two years. very ironic. If you were really here for honest debate, you would have jumped on that yourself. However, its clear you are a bit too close to mangino and company and by extension Doh. Why shouldn't Doh be judged by the same standards Tubbs was, whatever those were? Violations included.

Why shouldn't Doh be judged by the same standards Tubbs was? B/c we've all admitted Tubbs was done wrong. Those standards, should never have been applied to Tubb,s and really shouldn't be applied to Doherty, considering he's cleaning up after Tubbs. I'm not too close to anyone, I'm only about forward progress. Tubbs was screwed and Doh inherited an impossible situation. I'm didn't judge Tubbs after two years, nor did I judge Doherty. It's not that kind of job.

That said, the fact that you want Doherty judged by the same standards as Tubbs, speaks to a grudge, not about doing what's right by the program. We were awful to Tubbs, but you don't treat the next guy the same way. Learn from that disgrace.

[gostangs]

my apologies on the cadaver thing - obviously did not think that one all the way through.

Not saying Doh is the end all, but I think he does have things going the right direction - and there is no way to prove it until we see what happens next year. All i know is in the short time Tubbs was coaching SMU there was never a positive buzz and when he was fired we were clearly in a downhill trajectory - that is why he was run out. It is now getting to be a pretty long time ago, so if HoopFans could ever give it a rest we could quit having to re-hash it.

[CalallenStang]

well, its pretty much a joke to suggest Doh is a developer of players, but ok. We all know he hangs his hat on being a recruiter first and foremost. Let's for a minute say he developed Papa. What about the other 6 players in that class that everyone said was so great at the time, who he WAS clearly responsible for recruiting? How did they develop? Other than Papa, it aint pretty.

I think Nyakundi(all league as a junior) turned out Ok, and of course Dia, a 2 time all league kid, first team this year, DPOY, and all time great big at SMU. How many all league kids did you want out of that class? again, who is debating you, other than shooting down some of your inane arguments. It was too big a class, it had some real personality issues, and some non-performers. It also yielded two big time players for us. Walker and Harp were career role players that helped as seniors.

uh, i didn't bring it up. Here's the great thing about a message thread, its in black and white. I offered a counterpoint to the ridiculous notion that anyone failed after two years. very ironic. If you were really here for honest debate, you would have jumped on that yourself. However, its clear you are a bit too close to mangino and company and by extension Doh. Why shouldn't Doh be judged by the same standards Tubbs was, whatever those were? Violations included.

Hoop Fan, I didn't say he failed. I said he didn't succeed. There's a big difference. He didn't take our talent level up a notch in the two recruiting classes that he did have. That means that during his time, he didn't succeed.

I agree that you can't say that he failed because there wasn't enough time for that. Had he served his entire contract length and still not accomplished his goals, that would have been failure.

[Hoop Fan]

[Why shouldn't Doh be judged by the same standards Tubbs was? B/c we've all admitted Tubbs was done wrong. Those standards, should never have been applied to Tubb,s and really shouldn't be applied to Doherty, considering he's cleaning up after Tubbs. I'm not too close to anyone, I'm only about forward progress. Tubbs was screwed and Doh inherited an impossible situation. I'm didn't judge Tubbs after two years, nor did I judge Doherty. It's not that kind of job.

That said, the fact that you want Doherty judged by the same standards as Tubbs, speaks to a grudge, not about doing what's right by the program. We were awful to Tubbs, but you don't treat the next guy the same way. Learn from that disgrace.

you know damn well i am not suggesting Doh should have been fired after two years and never have. Way to twist the arguement, but that has become your MO. Heres the thing, by any stated goal or expectation when he took the job, Doh's 5 year tenure (not 2) has been pretty poor. If you take Papa away, who really is not even Doh's own recruit if you really look at it objectively, the results would be absolutely DISMAL. This is not about Tubbs, its about Doherty and what kind of job HE has really done in five years. The CIT is window dressing. Any tournament where you can buy home games is a joke and you know it. Its a joke to call these postseason wins. They are exhibition wins and i would think that whether Doh, or Tubbs or james Naismith were the coach. You go on spinning though.

[Treadway21]

Wouda shouda coulda. Papa is with team, we are in post season, doh is here thru next year at least, and hoopfan can't let it go. Yes, grudge covers it, add in bitter too.

[mustangxc]

[Why shouldn't Doh be judged by the same standards Tubbs was? B/c we've all admitted Tubbs was done wrong. Those standards, should never have been applied to Tubb,s and really shouldn't be applied to Doherty, considering he's cleaning up after Tubbs. I'm not too close to anyone, I'm only about forward progress. Tubbs was screwed and Doh inherited an impossible situation. I'm didn't judge Tubbs after two years, nor did I judge Doherty. It's not that kind of job.

That said, the fact that you want Doherty judged by the same standards as Tubbs, speaks to a grudge, not about doing what's right by the program. We were awful to Tubbs, but you don't treat the next guy the same way. Learn from that disgrace.

you know damn well i am not suggesting Doh should have been fired after two years and never have. Way to twist the arguement, but that has become your MO. Heres the thing, by any stated goal or expectation when he took the job, Doh's 5 year tenure (not 2) has been pretty poor. If you take Papa away, who really is not even Doh's own recruit if you really look at it objectively, the results would be absolutely DISMAL. This is not about Tubbs, its about Doherty and what kind of job HE has really done in five years. The CIT is window dressing. Any tournament where you can buy home games is a joke and you know it. Its a joke to call these postseason wins. They are exhibition wins and i would think that whether Doh, or Tubbs or james Naismith were the coach. You go on spinning though.

Everyone is attracted to a program because they mesh well with the coaches, players, location, system, and a number of other factors. You take every swipe you can at Doherty and try to discredit him in every way you can and manufacture opportunities to do so. We all agree that Tubbs, like him or not as a Division I Head coach, got royally screwed. However, while you deny saying so, you have implied numerous times that every subsequent coach should be treated the same way Tubbs was. Firing a coach at SMU based on performance after only 2 years was and is stupid. Get over it!!! Thankfully, some of the local recruits have been able to see past that disastrous situation. I would hope that as an SMU fan you would too. I believe I am on record stating that Tubbs should never have been hired as head coach, but once he was, he should have been given ample time to prove himself.

[Hoop Fan]

Wouda shouda coulda. Papa is with team, we are in post season, doh is here thru next year at least, and hoopfan can't let it go. Yes, grudge covers it, add in bitter too.

yep, I'm so bitter that i was one of the FEW people there and yelling for Papa and company yesterday afternoon. The attendance spoke for itself yesterday as far as whether MOST people consider this to be legit postseason. Did you notice that Gerald Turner had a whole ROW to himself and his wife? Wow, Doh and this CIT run really have people fired up. I'm just keeping it real. If you don't like it, I dont really care. But when you don't like an opinion, its always great to attack someone personally with BS about bitterness. I don't lose any sleep over the past of SMU basketball, but I do have certain expecations of SMU and that includes not being hypocritical as an institution.

[hoopmanx]

Wouda shouda coulda. Papa is with team, we are in post season, doh is here thru next year at least, and hoopfan can't let it go. Yes, grudge covers it, add in bitter too.

yep, I'm so bitter that i was one of the FEW people there and yelling for Papa and company yesterday afternoon. The attendance spoke for itself yesterday as far as whether MOST people consider this to be legit postseason. Did you notice that Gerald Turner had a whole ROW to himself and his wife? Wow, Doh and this CIT run really have people fired up. I'm just keeping it real. If you don't like it, I dont really care. But when you don't like an opinion, its always great to attack someone personally with BS about bitterness. I don't lose any sleep over the past of SMU basketball, but I do have certain expecations of SMU and that includes not being hypocritical as an institution.

It's not being hypocritical, if it's acknowledged that Tubbs was handled poorly. Just b/c we made awful decisions surrounding that situation, doesn't mean that we should intentionally doom ourselves again, just to be fair. By most every measure, this program has a good few years coming up, a rapidly improving roster, and a rejuvenated staff. Statistically, it's developing into an efficient offense, and defensively we hold opposing FG percentages down, and keep most everyone below their PPG average. Four big time kids waiting to become eligible, and a great 4 person class coming in. We return an All-CUSA kid, our starting PG, Losh/Clink & our best perimeter defender.

Why is anyone complaining about anything? We're alive late March, overachieved this year, and don't have to worry about talent next few years. "12 is the first recruiting cycle in forever that we're caught up on. We can try and find the right fits, best player available etc, w/o needing a starter or even someone for the 2 deep. This isn't 3 years ago, and doesn't have much to do w/3 years ago. Future is pretty solid

[Hoop Fan]

this is going off in several directions. I am enjoying the extra games and am glad to have them. Having said that, the Rice game was the real measuring stick on the post season. In that important game on a neutral court, we spit the bit. Its a results business and that key result was not good. I count that Rice game more than two home games against ORU and Jax that we bought. Is that focusing on negativity? I don't think so, its my assessment of what is important to focus on. It would be like Maryland losing to this years Wake team in the first round of the ACC tournament, and then winning a few homecourt NIT games against smaller, less capable schools. Would you be happy with that?

As for the recruits, yes, I think they bought Doh another year, but he has to produce with them almost from the get-go. I also think Losh is a disapointment, even grading on a curve due do him missing the fist semester.

[hoopmanx]

this is going off in several directions. I am enjoying the extra games and am glad to have them. Having said that, the Rice game was the real measuring stick on the post season. In that important game on a neutral court, we spit the bit. Its a results business and that key result was not good. I count that Rice game more than two home games against ORU and Jax that we bought. Is that focusing on negativity? I don't think so, its my assessment of what is important to focus on. It would be like Maryland losing to this years Wake team in the first round of the ACC tournament, and then winning a few homecourt NIT games against smaller, less capable schools. Would you be happy with that?

As for the recruits, yes, I think they bought Doh another year, but he has to produce with them almost from the get-go. I also think Losh is a disapointment, even grading on a curve due do him missing the fist semester.

I have no understanding of why you'd place that much emphasis on the CUSA tourney. We'd been negotiating w/the CIT & CBI for weeks prior to that game, and our postseason plight was sealed before that game, unless we ran the table. Losing to Rice, isn't comparable to losing to this years Wake team. Rice has some high end talent in Jackson & Kazemi, and has a great class coming in.. Wake is a considered one of the worst ACC teams ever assembled.

If Maryland hadn't been to the postseason in 10 years, I wouldn't care who they beat, nor would I think we're inherently better than anyone. This year is what it is, but just to dispel a rumor, his newcomers don't have to perform from day 1 next year, the man is by all accounts getting extended.

[Hoop Fan]

why wouldn't you place emphasis on the CUSA tournament???????? Are you saying we had the CIT locked up so it didn't matter what we did in our conference tournament? Thats so ridiculously apologetic its unbelievable. You still play to win in your conference tournament with your two all conference players and all-time great center, don't you? Man, which is it?

If Doherty got anything but a meaningless in name only extension, that is a farce. And now you are already starting to back peddle on being better next year. Can i ask you this, can we even expect to beat TCU at home next year?? MUST WIN, period.