Official SMU-Rice Game Thread

[Stallion]

I agree with HoopFan-seemed to me that people were willing to give Doherty a complete pass on this season because of the recruiting class-when you have so many upperclassmen with about 20 total letters I expect the team to be at least competitive in a coach's 5th year or what are you building.

[shadowman]

I agree with HoopFan-seemed to me that people were willing to give Doherty a complete pass on this season because of the recruiting class-when you have so many upperclassmen with about 20 total letters I expect the team to be at least competitive in a coach's 5th year or what are you building.

I will disagree in the statement that Doherty got a pass. I think it was more like, this team is going to suck and is going nowhere, we just need to let it play out so we can fire his a@@.

I had faith in this team early, I felt with Nyakundi raining threes and Dia dominating on the low blocks, we would be competitive.

Now, when the season started so badly, I did have my doubts, but I am proud of how the coaches and players have pulled it together.

Who knows, we may not win another game. BUT, who knows, we may not lose again. I think we can play with anyone in C-USA.

[Mitch McConnell]

I've said this team is Dia and Nyakundi and a bunch of guys named Herb on this roster,

Harp is terrible. Haynes hasn't developed. Luttman takes up a seat on the bench. Walker is what he is -- 3 points for 3 games and 13 today -- Mangrum (I have no idea what he is), Clinkscales is the same as Walker if not a little worse. There is no bench. That Samparixxxxx guy is freshman in college BB.

Staillion, in this 5th year, I would agree with you in theory. But there was a lot of trail off especially when Paul McCoy leaves and there wasn't a lot behind Dia and Nyakundi.

Initially, I was hoping for this thing to tank out, get Doherty out of here and hope somebody would come because of the kids who transferred or had signed. I really didn't have any expectations this year.

Well, here we are. Although I haven't seen a game in person, it would appear that things are getting better. The kids are getting it on both the perimeter and on the block and defensively, they're doing what they should.

Maybe we live in a world that patience no longer exists. Tom Landry got a contract extension from Clint Murchison in in 1965 (I think). And I think we know how it looked with the Cowboys in those early years.

[PonyDoh]

I don't think fans wanted to give Doh a pass for this year, but he just wasn't getting canned, no matter what. All he had to do was bring Miller and crew to practice to show off Leslee & Vilde. Those are two of our 4 best players on the roster and impact CUSA kids.Once Losh gets his feet wet, he's the same way. Also, you don't hire a search firm to hire assistants, only to can the guy a year later. You don't schedule the way we did OOC w/o the pres & AD signing off, cause attendance was gonna die. When we did those things, people should have seen the writing on the wall and just let it play out. We could have bitched and moaned all day, but it wasn't changing the fact that Doh got next year.

The senior class has two all-conference style performers, even though Nyuk is a junior technically. Its hard to call that a bust, even w/the turnover. Roster management has been awful, and bench coaching very iffy, if not bad, until last year. McCoy was a cancer, and we're seeing that now. That should have been fleshed out when we recruited him. Would have been great not to [deleted] of Jared Dubois etc. We could have used Frank Otis this year, but we used his ride wisely. All the PGs we recruited in the Spring are thriving including Frog.

When we switched to the princeton was when I started to see the future. Its a system that makes a ton of sense for this program and institution.Others cried that they wanted uptempo at SMU, which is just silly. It's also everything that schools in CUSA hate. When we hired Mangino and gave him the keys, and told Doh to recruit, I knew we could turn the corner. Then came the '11 class, and the '12 is going to very good as well. We'll see, but dwelling on those first several years never made much sense, cause this was a very tainted program. So far this year, this staff is out-coaching everyone, cause we effectively have 2 legit CUSA starters(minus Losh), and we're recruiting well.

Sometimes, you have to let things play out. I see folks at ACC schools wondering when Tony Bennett gets the axe at UVA, and he's 1.5 years in. Gary Williams gets killed at Maryland for recruiting, even though he's a top 5 game & practice coach in America. Its a sad statement on new media, ridiculous fans, and the industry in general. expectations never match the programs anymore. We deserved what we got those first bunch of years after Tubbs

[SMU Pony Mom]

Great win! Looking forward to watching how things play out going into the conference tourney.

[Pony_Fan]

I agree with HoopFan-seemed to me that people were willing to give Doherty a complete pass on this season because of the recruiting class-when you have so many upperclassmen with about 20 total letters I expect the team to be at least competitive in a coach's 5th year or what are you building.

Just b/c they are upperclassmen doesn't mean they were going to be any good. From what I saw at the beginning of the season, they weren't even close to playing this well. 3 ineligibles also.

I'd say it's coming together as a team game right now and learning the system. Without Hobbie and Mangino, Doh would be treading water I think, we'd never know. Yes, they are getting "coached up" right now and shooting well. I know you hate to admit that.

Dia, we knew he would be pretty good this year - 1st team all conf.
Harp, (doesn't start) - not effective at SMU
Walker, not that great - inconsistent
Nyuk, has been plagued with injuries at SMU
Mangrum, unclear on what he'd bring
Clinks - can only catch and launch 3's

We currently lead the league in FG% and 3 PT shooting.

[RGV Pony]

and the nice thing is...we lose one guy going into next year, add a purported four star caliber guy to replace him (Vilde), and a high-level transfer (Cotton) as well as Smith and a one-time DFW player of the year. Add to that another four-star frosh, among others...man, Hobbie and Mangino stick around!

[shadowman]

and the nice thing is...we lose one guy going into next year, add a purported four star caliber guy to replace him (Vilde), and a high-level transfer (Cotton) as well as Smith and a one-time DFW player of the year. Add to that another four-star frosh, among others...man, Hobbie and Mangino stick around!

Hopefully a great future for SMU, but Papa Dia will be hard to replace...that dude has been a beast this year.

Lets make this year special and then have fun with the new guys next year.

[SoCal_Pony]

We currently lead the league in FG% and 3 PT shooting.

We lead the league in FT%. Go Figure.

[mavsrage311]

is Character still around, that kid is a Defensive End playing hoops.

Look forward to the games coming up - I am eating crow for dinner. Didn't think these guys could win 3-4 games. TCU and ULR would be nice to be able to have a do-over.

Beat ECU!

Nope, Big Boy is playing in the pros for the Lakers now

[Stallion]

Whatever-experienced players win football games and basketball games even if they aren't the most talented in the world. The 1992 Football team wasn't very talented -either -in fact they were spares-but with 38 Seniors they settled some scores. There is no doubt they are better coached. But the same open shots that Nykundi was missing as a freshman and sophomore are going down right now. Dia has improved every year. All the players were recruited by Doherty-if he can't coach them up as upperclassmen then I got a problem with that. Doesn't look like we are going to have to worry about that-but if SMU had just mailed it in this year then I would have had no problem moving on. I'm pretty confident that the freshman next year will struggle too as freshman. Talent + Experience =Success. Jon Koncak, Larry Davis and a steller freshman class won 6 games 1-15 in SWC as freshman lost their last 13 SWC games in a row-the same players took SMU to the Tournament as upperclassmen. This ain't Rocket Science

[Charleston Pony]

let's just make sure we keep Mangino around; going to have to teach the incoming Frosh this system and the guys will need to build chemistry; depending on the schedule, next year could be a repeat of this year, i.e., slow start before the guys "get it"

all I know is they are fun to watch right now

winning 5 of our remaining 9 might be a pretty lofty goal but who would have predicted we would be talking about the possibility of an 18-12 regular season finish?

[PonyDoh]

Whatever-experienced players win football games and basketball games even if they aren't the most talented in the world. The 1992 Football team wasn't very talented -either -in fact they were spares-but with 38 Seniors they settled some scores. There is no doubt they are better coached. But the same open shots that Nykundi was missing as a freshman and sophomore are going down right now. Dia has improved every year. All the players were recruited by Doherty-if he can't coach them up as upperclassmen then I got a problem with that. Doesn't look like we are going to have to worry about that-but if SMU had just mailed it in this year then I would have had no problem moving on. I'm pretty confident that the freshman next year will struggle too as freshman. Talent + Experience =Success. Jon Koncak, Larry Davis and a steller freshman class won 6 games 1-15 in SWC as freshman lost their last 13 SWC games in a row-the same players took SMU to the Tournament as upperclassmen. This ain't Rocket Science

Most every player you mentioned, didn't play 500 games a year vs elite national comp like the freshman these days. Hoops player are far more ready to contribute on average than a football kid, even a redshirt. They are far more ready to contribute than frosh ballers, just 15-20 years ago. Honestly, after playing a national schedule for Showtyme, a kid like Jalen Jones probably won't find CUSA all that daunting. Hoops is about drawing elite talent & system, not as much about maturation. There is no more overrated aspect of college hoops than 'individual improvement.' Recruit well, put them in a proven system, flourish.

In the case of this years senior class, we had one true national recruit and he's been an All-frosh, and all-league type for 3 out of his 4 years. He's no better this year than last, he's just in a system that gets him a plethora of easy looks from 6 ft and in. The only reason we're not getting run off the floor is b/c the princeton and our assortment of wacky zones. As much as people want to give Hobbie props for our better shooting, we're just playing small by design b/c it's what we have. When you put 4 guards on the floor, and work the set, those kids will get clean looks. In the past, our guards had to create late in the clock, and never just squared up and flicked their wrist. Like Dia, they are going to shoot a higher percentage, cause they are getting shots where they are comfortable. Nobody has radically changed their shooting motion from a year ago. Nobody had a crazy hitch that needed fixing etc.

Also, Doh is deferring a ton. At some point, a man either recognizes for himself, or is forced to recognize, his strengths & weaknesses. Doh is a fantastic face man and recruiter, no shame in that. He didn't know the current system, so we had to get someone who did. Mangino is the hoops equivalent of a book worm, and that's huge for this program. He can't recruit, nor can he fundraise, or even show well in press conferences. Hobbie lends years of bench experience. Doh & Brown recruit. It's the best formula we've had in forever. I'd rather have Lutz than Hobbie, but that's really splitting hairs.

[ponyscott]

I was going to answer in a similar note as a response to Stallion as what happened 20 years ago in football and 25 years ago in basketball is not exactly germane to what occurs today in either college sport. Football I will agree somewhat, as an 18 year old can't matchup strengthwise with a 23 year old college football player, especially after 3-4 years of practice and technique improvement.
But college basketball is waaaaay more sophisticated than Larry Davis/Konckak days. These guys play more than 100 games in the spring/summer after their HS season in their frosh,sophomore and junior years against the best of the country in AAU ball in tournaments all around the country and some of the AAU programs have great experienced coaching staffs with sophisticated Offensive and defensive play sets and specialized trainers etc. They play against 18-19 year old phenoms when they are only 15 or 16 and by the time they get to college they have already played against the best and like you said Doh, some of these kids will eat up CUSA compared to some teams thay have played in the major tournaments in Vegas, Kingwood, LA etc.
I don't agree with all on your take on the Hobbie shooting skills....the SMU shooting % aren't all a result of new better positions on offense etc. I agree that they seem to be in better position to shoot this year on offense after the ball is swung around and they don't seem to rush their shots when they get them. That could be also a result of Hobbie just putting them in better position to catch the ball and being physically ready to shoot. He also brings a new positive shooting 'mind set' as well as assisting on better shooting techniques, positions for shooting for guards and forwards and better catch and shoot skills that needed refining as Doherty never worked on that side of it since hes been here. The old axiom of 'shooters know no conscience' is working here and probably came from Hobbie.. The 10% increase in FT shooting % this year from last year isn't because of small ball. Yes the guys know how to shoot, but they can get better with good coaching just as professional golfers can get better from good coaching. Hes our 'Butch Harmon' of shooting maybe?.....lol

[Hoop Fan]

AAU ball is not sophisticated, its mostly bad coaching and bad habits. yes, some of these kids play a ton of games, and if they don't burnout, they are more college ready sooner because of the competition they play, but its all relative anyway. You cannot convince me that college level experience and strenght and development don't matter in hoops. Maybe not as much as in football, which is obvious by the fact that freshmen in basketball do not normally redshirt and never have. Doherty played the "we're young" card over and over again the past few years. Was that all BS? No, he will play the inexperience card next year too, and it will be a factor. A better example of collective experience than the 92 football squad, is actually the 92-93 basketball team. That was a below average group in the previous couple seasons, added Mike Wilson and it all came together in the senior year of Mason, Allen, Lewis and Kinzer. This is the year that should have come together for SMU at least somewhat with Dia and company with so much D-1 and CUSA experience and a pitifully weak non-conf schedule. It was often said around campus that the 93 team won despite Shumate...I watch other programs who have highly touted freshmen these days, not top 10, but top 150 players and they invariably struggle as young players in the college game 90% of the time even in the hyper-AAU era.