Coaches Hot Seat BB (look at #2)

[MustangIcon]

Identical? no. Similar? Yeah, fairly similar. Early recruits: Cam Spencer vs. Ike Ofegbu. Adv. Tubbs. Bamba Fall, Brian Morris, Dez Willingham vs. the current Freshman 7. I don't know jury is still out but its anything but clearcut so far. Most of you guys have and continually scapegoat Tubbs because its easy and convenient for you. Its the SMU way. I just like to keep it real, thats about all.

When comparing Spencer and Ike wouldn't it be "apples to apples" to compare them in their first two seasons at SMU? Both for all intents and purposes would have to be considerd non-factors. Remember, before Doherty got here Ike was a complete and utter spare that averaged 2pts and 2 rebounds per game over the course of his first 2 seasons at SMU.

You forgot to mention eligibility issues with B-Hop, Morriss (why he apparently left school), and Bamba (faced potential ineligibility as Doherty was coming in).

You also overlooked the fact that Tubbs inherited a team with 4 returning starters. 3 of which were Seniors and 1 was a Junior that happened to be one of the top scorers in conference. That team beat Texas Tech and Purdue while being competitive against Wake Forest.

We won't even compare Tubbs and Doherty in charisma and furthering SMU Basketball off the court.

The only thing that is remotely comparable between Doherty and Tubbs is the on floor results. Our results currently suck. The results likewise sucked with Tubbs and he had a much better chance to win with the roster he had than Doherty.

Thats 'keeping it real', Hoop.

I can see why you are so adament about your argument, we're only down 46-22 at halftime to Southern Mississippi at the moment. Hell, lets lose by 100, you have no expectations of anything unless it had to do with tubbs. i will respond to your specific points when i am not distracted by this doozy of a performance in Hattisburg.

I readily admit that we are bad, not good, poor, terrible, awful, or however you would like to describe it. My posts were made directly in response to you saying the situations are similar. I have said nothing to the effect of that I think the results we are getting right now are acceptable. I don't think anyone is remotely pleased with our current results.

[friarwolf]

Those Sas, Willie D and Q teams would wipe the floor with these guys.

Maybe so, but what about when Dia, Malone, Walker, Harp, etc., (not to mention Faye and Nyakundi) are juniors and seniors? I seem to recall being super-frustrated when Sass and Davis were freshmen because of the mental mistakes they made, too. These guys have a lot of potential, from the two games I saw. How much remains to be seen as they get older, and hopefully wiser.

My hope is that when our current class of freshmen are juniors, they are sitting on the bench as backups because we have more talented freshmen and sophomores. My suspicion is if this bunch is still starting when they are juniors, we will be looking at a below 500 record in conference and a 500 record in conference when they are seniors.........

[smu diamond m]

I have better expectations for them in their sophomore years, even more so their Junior and Senior years.

I want to see some wins, regardless of how disgruntled and upset you guys are about our horrid record. I think Doh is on his way to producing.

[MustangIcon]

When comparing Spencer and Ike wouldn't it be "apples to apples" to compare them in their first two seasons at SMU? Both for all intents and purposes would have to be considerd non-factors. Remember, before Doherty got here Ike was a complete and utter spare that averaged 2pts and 2 rebounds per game over the course of his first 2 seasons at SMU.
Ok, if you want to credit Doh for Ike stepping it up senior year, do you also blame Doh for Roberts lack of development and not living up to potential? Can't have these things both ways. Gotta say that Ike stepped up as an individual it seems to me. We'll see what spencer turns out to be, but Doh shouldn't get the blame or the selective credit. Its more of recruiting question. I am not so much trying to credit Doh with an Ike improvement as I am trying to say your Ike advantage over Spencer is BS. Spencer is a Sophmore in his second season who has done just as much (ie NOTHING) as Ike had as junior in his second season.

You forgot to mention eligibility issues with B-Hop, Morriss (why he apparently left school), and Bamba (faced potential ineligibility as Doherty was coming in).
I don't know, what was SMU's academic support staff doing? Can only blame so much on the coach, but if it makes you feel better. Morris left. duh, that is hindsight. But as a freshman, he showed more promise than every freshmen on this squad except Papa. do you blame Doh for Nyakundi's situation this year? And we'll see if all of Dohs recruits stay the course here. I agree with you that Morris was a very promising player. Again though, you have left the scope of my arguement. Under Tubbs we had a trend of eligibility issues. Under Doherty, we have not. There is no Nayakundi issue. Why? Because Doherty handles things before they become an issue apparently. You aren't conditioned? You don't play. You aren't putting forth maximum effort in the classroom? There will be consequences. I COMMEND him for setting standards for our players and expecting them to be met. others here think its his "ego". I am not one of them.

You also overlooked the fact that Tubbs inherited a team with 4 returning starters. 3 of which were Seniors and 1 was a Junior that happened to be one of the top scorers in conference. That team beat Texas Tech and Purdue while being competitive against Wake Forest.
So you thought Tubbs first team had post season talent? They were a .500 squad no matter who was coaching. Had no rebounding or defensive stoppers in the paint. that team got killed in the post at crunch time over and over again. Wasn't that also the team that lost at home to Appalacian St. a couple days before the Purdue game? Not to mention Purdue proved they were not really a good team that season, they went on to have a terrible season and should have never been ranked. nice win anyway, but not indicative of being a good team. I never said they had post-season talent. Would they be better than last year's team? Yes. Would they wax this years SMU team? Yes. I also think that team would be the 4th best team in CUSA right now- behind only Memphis, UH, UAB, all of whom are likely post season teams.

We won't even compare Tubbs and Doherty in charisma and furthering SMU Basketball off the court.
Ok great, if that was the main job criteria to schmooze with alums, why did Dr. Turner allow Tubbs to be hired in the first place? Tubbs was a known quanity after 10 years as an assistant here, so that arguement for his firing sucks. I am not making any arguements as to why he is fired. I am again looking at how similar or not the situations are. When you compare Tubbs to Doherty in this regard, there is simply no comparison.

The only thing that is remotely comparable between Doherty and Tubbs is the on floor results. Our results currently suck. The results likewise sucked with Tubbs and he had a much better chance to win with the roster he had than Doherty.
Uh, these results suck much worse. Even if you are grading with the all forgiving freshman curve, you have to give this season a D. We agree that these results are much worse. We also agree that this season can be looked at as nothing but a failure in terms of on court results. However, like I said before, I think Tubbs's experienced roster and talent he had made that wohat could have bveen a good team rather than the mediocre one it was.
Thats 'keeping it real', Hoop.

[DiamondM]

Oh yes, Tubbs inherited a powerhouse program from Dement. Look, the standard is win in two years or you're out. If Doherty isn't fired after this year, we need to examine the real reason Tubbs was set up and knocked down by SMU. God knows it wasn't really for "violations"....

Do we really need to hash this out again? A college basketball coach has to do essentially 6 things.

1. Win
2. Recruit well
3. Be the face and voice of the program to alumni (i.e. Raise Money)
4. Keep the athletes academically eligible
5. Be the face and voice of the program to students & media (i.e. Raise awereness and attendance (again, money))
6. Run a clean program

While neither Tubbs nor Doherty accomplished #1 after 2 years, a coach will have a longer rope if the other stuff is happening. Even if we assume for purposes of argument that Doherty is not recruiting any better than Tubbs in his first two years, the main reason for Tubbs' hired was the promise of awesome recruiting in DFW, something that never materialized. The difference between reality and expectations therefore made it look even worse.

With respect to 3-5, Tubbs failed pretty badly. While a few burgers and a little laundry detergent might not have been that big of a problem if Tubbs had been doing any of the first 5 satisfactorily, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Right now, Doherty is masterful at 3-6. We would not have the Crum center if we didn't have Doherty; we would not even be pulling the anemic 3000 average for home games with this record without Doherty; we would not have the positive local and national press we've been getting despite the record without Doherty; and, based on what was happening at the time Tubbs was fired, several of our current players (including Bamba) would have been academically ineligible without Doherty. And, and least for me, the improvement of John Killen in the last 2 years (not to mention Ike and Donatas last year), and the improvement of Harp, Walker, and Bamba's offensive game this year gives me some indication that Doherty can develop players -- something that was lacking in the Dement/Tubbs era.

[SMU Football Blog]

Oh yes, Tubbs inherited a powerhouse program from Dement. Look, the standard is win in two years or you're out. If Doherty isn't fired after this year, we need to examine the real reason Tubbs was set up and knocked down by SMU. God knows it wasn't really for "violations"....

Tubbs brought a variety of issues upon himself that eventually resulted in his termination.

To be very clear:

I did not want SMU to hire Tubbs. It was a mistake and I said so at the time.

Notwithstanding the above, I did not think SMU should have fired Tubbs when it did. That was a mistake and I said so at the time.

Notwithstanding the above, I am glad Tubbs is gone.

I like Matt Doherty a lot.

In other words, "Matt Doherty deserves the time that Tubbs should have been given to do the job that Tubbs should not have been given in the first place."

I couldn't be clearer.

[SoCal_Pony]

My hope is that when our current class of freshmen are juniors, they are sitting on the bench as backups because we have more talented freshmen and sophomores. My suspicion is if this bunch is still starting when they are juniors, we will be looking at a below 500 record in conference and a 500 record in conference when they are seniors.........

Unfortunately, that is the same conclusion I am coming to, although maybe not as harsh.

I simply don’t see this team maturing into a NCAA tourney team.

Another ‘issue’ we are not discussing is if you look at the other offers our incoming class received, it is not promising. That was always the criteria I judged PB by.

[Nacho]

I think Doh gets 2 more years, same as Tubbs should have gotten.

[Junior]

I dunno, Coach Tubbs was gone after two years.

apples and oranges

I thought it was burgers and Cheer?

[mathman]

Oh yes, Tubbs inherited a powerhouse program from Dement. Look, the standard is win in two years or you're out. If Doherty isn't fired after this year, we need to examine the real reason Tubbs was set up and knocked down by SMU. God knows it wasn't really for "violations"....

Do we really need to hash this out again? A college basketball coach has to do essentially 6 things.

1. Win
2. Recruit well
3. Be the face and voice of the program to alumni (i.e. Raise Money)
4. Keep the athletes academically eligible
5. Be the face and voice of the program to students & media (i.e. Raise awereness and attendance (again, money))
6. Run a clean program

While neither Tubbs nor Doherty accomplished #1 after 2 years, a coach will have a longer rope if the other stuff is happening. Even if we assume for purposes of argument that Doherty is not recruiting any better than Tubbs in his first two years, the main reason for Tubbs' hired was the promise of awesome recruiting in DFW, something that never materialized. The difference between reality and expectations therefore made it look even worse.

With respect to 3-5, Tubbs failed pretty badly. While a few burgers and a little laundry detergent might not have been that big of a problem if Tubbs had been doing any of the first 5 satisfactorily, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Right now, Doherty is masterful at 3-6. We would not have the Crum center if we didn't have Doherty; we would not even be pulling the anemic 3000 average for home games with this record without Doherty; we would not have the positive local and national press we've been getting despite the record without Doherty; and, based on what was happening at the time Tubbs was fired, several of our current players (including Bamba) would have been academically ineligible without Doherty. And, and least for me, the improvement of John Killen in the last 2 years (not to mention Ike and Donatas last year), and the improvement of Harp, Walker, and Bamba's offensive game this year gives me some indication that Doherty can develop players -- something that was lacking in the Dement/Tubbs era.

Excellent post.

[SMU Football Blog]

4. Keep the athletes academically eligible

Bennett learned early on that you can't trust the LEC when it comes to kids grades. I forgot who it was, but early on, the LEC kept assuring the football staff that a kid was going to be eligible when it was clear he wasn't going to be. From that point on, the coaches realized they had to ride the kids. Surely, Bennett mentioned this to Tubbs at some point. Tubbs never learned or never made the effort.

[DickerJames]

Do we really need to hash this out again?

NO!

[papawasamustang]

You won't find a bigger Robo Doh fan than me. However, he should be on this list. He started with nothing & has turned nothing into nothing.

I would add Wilson down @ Rice to the list.

[jtstang]

With respect to 3-5, Tubbs failed pretty badly. While a few burgers and a little laundry detergent might not have been that big of a problem if Tubbs had been doing any of the first 5 satisfactorily, it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Uuhhh, burgers and Cheer?? Our hero Copeland said it was much more than burgers and Cheer. Are you telling me you are starting to question the veracity of that statement?

[Insane_Pony_Posse]

"we need to examine the real reason Tubbs was set up and
knocked down by SMU. God knows it wasn't really for "violations"...."

More cynisicm and negativity towards SMU from jTstang ?