OT: DMN - Black at SMU

[Killen]

I could peel this onion back very far regarding the status of black students on campus - especially black males.

But to keep it short: SMU does a pretty good job where Athletes are concerned, if graduation/retention/aid are the metrics of interest. Gets pretty scary if look into majors and the very anecdotal career outcomes.

Concerning the non-athlete black males, its very very bleak.

I didn't think much of it when I entered SMU in the Fall of 2004, but I really didn't have 10 other black males that would be considered highly qualified students. It really seems like SMU is content to do the following

1) Get whomever the coaches recruit
2) Compete for a few students that are worth Presidential Scholar
3) Take whoever else can get a 1000 SAT and is willing to mortgage their future for the SMU brand

I've spend an unhealthy amount of time trying to figure out SMU's "strategy". Best I can tell you, from speaking with multiple parties in Admission/Financial Aid - We just can't afford the scholarship packages required to recruit high quality black students. Of course, when I see programs like Community Scholar at TCU - I have to wonder if black students just arent worth that kind of investment outside of athletics.

**Full disclosure, i've poured over the SMU Institutional Research files, NCAA/Fed Report, and a few privileged sources within SMU.

[Stallion]

Jordan Williams is making the most of his opportunity

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWeueFeXAAEpc8Z.jpg

[rodrod5]

http://trends.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/student-aid-2013-full-report.pdf

–
In 2012-13 undergraduate students received an average of
$13,730 per full-time equivalent (FTE) student in financial aid,
including $7,190 in grants from all sources and $4,900
in federal loans.

so the AVERAGE that SMU students receive is double the national average

the SMU site does not state if any of that is loans or what % if any is loans....BUT it does specifically state "scholarships" which would not be loans and also it specifies NEED BASED financial aid and generally loans even federal student loans are not "need based" since they are repaid thus it is very clear that SMU offering twice the national average is very aggressive all the more so when most of that is likely NOT in the form of loans since it specifies "need based" while the quoted number for the national average does include loans without any mention of "need based"

and before you make some less than salient comment about SMU costing more.....well here is a clue it cost more to have a 10 or 12 to 1 student to faculty ratio Vs twice that....it cost more to have classes taught by a very high % of tenured or tenure track faculty VS graduate students and TAs and adjuncts and it cost more to not have classes of 200 to 300+ students and it cost more to have faculty that actually want to teach and that have been vetted for their ability to teach Vs having 3 or sometimes 2 letters after their name and it cost more to have newer equipment and other resources shared by a much smaller number of students for a more hands on educational experience

So you admit cost is still a factor even though you do get more money. Good to have quality even though you have to pay more. No problem with that if SMU has a high number of tenured professors compared to others. I mean 53 incoming students a year over 4 years would be 212. 212 out of 6600 would be about 3.2% which would be worse than UT or A&M. I hope we can improve.

I did not say that "cost was a factor" you are the one that is trying to say that without any proof of that attempted point

again that is an AVERAGE financial aid package for SMU students so if a poor minority student was able to qualify to get into SMU based on individual academic merit I am sure they would be one of the students that would be receiving above average merit based financial aid because as you probably do not know when something is an "average" that means that some are getting less and some are getting more than average.....so the cost factor would be less for them

also you might have missed the part where SMU actually enrolls a larger % of blacks than UT or A&M back on page #2 and while you seem to believe that can be discounted because some of those blacks are also athletes you seem to miss out on the reality that if an athlete was not getting a full ride from SMU for playing a sport there would actually be money freed up for an academic student to get a free ride to SMU and that could (or could not) be a black person

because as I am sure you are NOT aware athletics at SMU does not "make money" it actually loses money because as I am sure you (and many like you) are not aware when you have a large amount of revenue and you spend MORE than your total revenues that is not "making money" that is called LOSING MONEY and you have to have those losses offset by some other means

and at he VAST MAJORITY of athletics programs at universities across the USA that LOSS is made up from the academic side and in the case of a public university in Texas it is made up either from tuition or from endowment funds because state funds in Texas are not allowed to be used for athletics

and in the case of a private school like SMU well there is only tuition and endowment revenues to make up for that difference in total athletics revenues Vs total athletics expenses and thus the academic side subsides athletics

here is a well known report from a few years back about the DEFICIT that SMU runs for athletics

http://www.smudailycampus.com/news/athl ... n-the-rise

it comes up with $113 million over 7 years or an average of $16 million per year

if you exclude scholarships in that period it drops to about $4.5 million in 2011.....but of course if we listened to your bleating those scholarships for black players really do not count and SMU could do just what you want them to do by dropping athletics and instead recruiting blacks on a full ride based on academics and then there would be several million left over per year even after that

and while the budget deficit excluding scholarships has decreased in that article up to 2011 SMU is now running a much higher total athletics budget in 2015 (about $55 million per year) Vs what it was in 2011 and turner is quoted in the DMN as recently as 2014 saying that football pays for itself, but nothing else comes close to covering their budget in athletics

there is of course the argument that overall university donations would decrease without sports to get alumni engaged and I see that as having some merit, but really we are more so looking at your silly point that for some reason blacks should be excluded as a % of the overall student population if they are involved in athletics

and based on the numbers SMU could lay that silliness to waste simply by stopping athletics and instead recruiting academics and probably have money left over until such time as donations and alumni engagement deceased accordingly

lastly while SMU actually has a higher % of blacks as an overall % of student population VS UT and A&M there is the fact that UT and A&M benefit from the 10% and 8% (at UT rule) and thus they have to admit any black student without regard to overall metrics or preparedness if they are in the top 10% (A&M) of 8% (UT) of their high school class so they basically have an open door to 10% of the high school classes at many of the predominantly black schools in Texas and they still have an overall lower % of blacks than SMU where students admitted on academics alone have to have similar metrics to the overall student population

so again SMU is doing pretty well when REALITY and REALISTIC analysis of the overall situation is used

[Rebel10]

I was saying that if we enroll 52 students per year for 3 years that would but us behind 2 schools that are not doing very well either. We'll see where we are in 4 years. I think you either missed that or are twisting what I was trying to say. Since we far fewer students that UT and A&M have it takes less to increase enroll. If you have 10 students in your total enrollment it only takes 2 to get to 20%. UT has what 40,000 students or so so it would be harder or UT to in the percentages because they have a larger number. And while you may think SMU is doing a bang up job 52 students of which only about 25 or so are regulars students is a legitimate concern. Also, If we were in CUSA we would have lower revenues than the AAC and no one can deny that even if you are in attack mode . And I am simply saying that if we recruited African American as assertive for non athletes as we do for athletes we would be better than what we are imo. It's all about recruiting, if you recruit not assertive in recruiting like certain coaches are then you get non assertive results. And I would like to thank Killen for giving us his perspective since he has actually had dialogue with people close to the issue.

[Rebel10]

I could peel this onion back very far regarding the status of black students on campus - especially black males.

But to keep it short: SMU does a pretty good job where Athletes are concerned, if graduation/retention/aid are the metrics of interest. Gets pretty scary if look into majors and the very anecdotal career outcomes.

Concerning the non-athlete black males, its very very bleak.

I didn't think much of it when I entered SMU in the Fall of 2004, but I really didn't have 10 other black males that would be considered highly qualified students. It really seems like SMU is content to do the following

1) Get whomever the coaches recruit
2) Compete for a few students that are worth Presidential Scholar
3) Take whoever else can get a 1000 SAT and is willing to mortgage their future for the SMU brand

I've spend an unhealthy amount of time trying to figure out SMU's "strategy". Best I can tell you, from speaking with multiple parties in Admission/Financial Aid - We just can't afford the scholarship packages required to recruit high quality black students. Of course, when I see programs like Community Scholar at TCU - I have to wonder if black students just arent worth that kind of investment outside of athletics.

**Full disclosure, i've poured over the SMU Institutional Research files, NCAA/Fed Report, and a few privileged sources within SMU.

Thanks.

[gostangs]

i would be just as concerned about the kid of whatever race that works their tale off and has SMU as their dream school and is unable to go because someone less qualified is in their spot just because of the color of their skin.

This is not an easy issue. And bottom line is to demand any school meet certain percentages for students based on race or professors based on race or meet some made up grievance oriented curriculum is a unrealistic demand, based on the issues regarding race that are preveleant in society at large. Its too bad everyone has to dance around this instead of calling B.S. on it - just to keep from being burned at the stake in public by the grievance industry enablers.

People are barking up a small sapling when a giant redwood is standing right next to it.

[rodrod5]

I could peel this onion back very far regarding the status of black students on campus - especially black males.

But to keep it short: SMU does a pretty good job where Athletes are concerned, if graduation/retention/aid are the metrics of interest. Gets pretty scary if look into majors and the very anecdotal career outcomes.

Concerning the non-athlete black males, its very very bleak.

I didn't think much of it when I entered SMU in the Fall of 2004, but I really didn't have 10 other black males that would be considered highly qualified students. It really seems like SMU is content to do the following

1) Get whomever the coaches recruit
2) Compete for a few students that are worth Presidential Scholar
3) Take whoever else can get a 1000 SAT and is willing to mortgage their future for the SMU brand

I've spend an unhealthy amount of time trying to figure out SMU's "strategy". Best I can tell you, from speaking with multiple parties in Admission/Financial Aid - We just can't afford the scholarship packages required to recruit high quality black students. Of course, when I see programs like Community Scholar at TCU - I have to wonder if black students just arent worth that kind of investment outside of athletics.

**Full disclosure, i've poured over the SMU Institutional Research files, NCAA/Fed Report, and a few privileged sources within SMU.

you mention TCU....yet back on page 2 TCU is 4.8% (many of which are athletes and TCU has 18 varsity sports to 17 at SMU) black students to SMU's 5%

and what is your solution do just what Justice Scalia RIGHTLY stated was an issue and that is let in students that might struggle at SMU because they are not prepared for the work and let them fail based on the fact they are of a particular race or ethnic group

again when a particular ethnic group well under performs in academics at the k-12 level and there are entire universities (several in Texas alone both public and private specifically for those students) it is not difficult to understand or reason why those students would be under represented at top universities and the answer is not to get in a massive bidding war between top universities nor is the answer to just let them in because of their race or ethnicity the answer is for that group to improve their academic performance at the k-12 level and get in based in their individual merit which is what they always claim they want to be judged based upon....well unless of course that does not work out as well as they hoped

and again Asians both rich and poor and in between and those that have been here for generations as well as those that are new to the USA can get it done as can Indians and even Africans that are actually from Africa and that come to the USA for college.....so it is time that african Americans get it done like those other groups do and since they will only listen to "those with their experience" it is time they stop looking to others for answers or to blame and time they start sorting it out for themselves because Asians and Indians and blacks from Africa are not coming to the USA or living in the USA and looking to others for the answers as to how to perform well in schools and universities they are doing it themselves

[Rebel10]

i would be just as concerned about the kid of whatever race that works their tale off and has SMU as their dream school and is unable to go because someone less qualified is in their spot just because of the color of their skin.

This is not an easy issue. And bottom line is to demand any school meet certain percentages for students based on race or professors based on race or meet some made up grievance oriented curriculum is a unrealistic demand, based on the issues regarding race that are preveleant in society at large. Its too bad everyone has to dance around this instead of calling B.S. on it - just to keep from being burned at the stake in public by the grievance industry enablers.

People are barking up a small sampling when a giant redwood is standing right next to it.

Yes, SMU is doing a great job recruiting African American non athletes and it all because of the grievance industry enablers that we even have the 25 or so African American non athletes that came to SMU. Forget their concerns, because their are only 25 non athletes national that can get into SMU nationwide. Couldn't be because of lack of assertiveness to recruit qualified African American students. 52 of them is fine. Just make sure that the athletes can run, catch, tackle and put the ball in the hoop. They should not express any concerns, shut up and act like good blacks like the good ole days.

[Rebel10]

I could peel this onion back very far regarding the status of black students on campus - especially black males.

But to keep it short: SMU does a pretty good job where Athletes are concerned, if graduation/retention/aid are the metrics of interest. Gets pretty scary if look into majors and the very anecdotal career outcomes.

Concerning the non-athlete black males, its very very bleak.

I didn't think much of it when I entered SMU in the Fall of 2004, but I really didn't have 10 other black males that would be considered highly qualified students. It really seems like SMU is content to do the following

1) Get whomever the coaches recruit
2) Compete for a few students that are worth Presidential Scholar
3) Take whoever else can get a 1000 SAT and is willing to mortgage their future for the SMU brand

I've spend an unhealthy amount of time trying to figure out SMU's "strategy". Best I can tell you, from speaking with multiple parties in Admission/Financial Aid - We just can't afford the scholarship packages required to recruit high quality black students. Of course, when I see programs like Community Scholar at TCU - I have to wonder if black students just arent worth that kind of investment outside of athletics.

**Full disclosure, i've poured over the SMU Institutional Research files, NCAA/Fed Report, and a few privileged sources within SMU.

you mention TCU....yet back on page 2 TCU is 4.8% (many of which are athletes and TCU has 18 varsity sports to 17 at SMU) black students to SMU's 5%

and what is your solution do just what Justice Scalia RIGHTLY stated was an issue and that is let in students that might struggle at SMU because they are not prepared for the work and let them fail based on the fact they are of a particular race or ethnic group

again when a particular ethnic group well under performs in academics at the k-12 level and there are entire universities (several in Texas alone both public and private specifically for those students) it is not difficult to understand or reason why those students would be under represented at top universities and the answer is not to get in a massive bidding war between top universities nor is the answer to just let them in because of their race or ethnicity the answer is for that group to improve their academic performance at the k-12 level and get in based in their individual merit which is what they always claim they want to be judged based upon....well unless of course that does not work out as well as they hoped

and again Asians both rich and poor and in between and those that have been here for generations as well as those that are new to the USA can get it done as can Indians and even Africans that are actually from Africa and that come to the USA for college.....so it is time that african Americans get it done like those other groups do and since they will only listen to "those with their experience" it is time they stop looking to others for answers or to blame and time they start sorting it out for themselves because Asians and Indians and blacks from Africa are not coming to the USA or living in the USA and looking to others for the answers as to how to perform well in schools and universities they are doing it themselves

Scalia made the statement about blacks in general which means it included the ones that score well enough to go to any university. So it was not a rightful statement but I see where your mind is.

[Killen]

I could peel this onion back very far regarding the status of black students on campus - especially black males.

But to keep it short: SMU does a pretty good job where Athletes are concerned, if graduation/retention/aid are the metrics of interest. Gets pretty scary if look into majors and the very anecdotal career outcomes.

Concerning the non-athlete black males, its very very bleak.

I didn't think much of it when I entered SMU in the Fall of 2004, but I really didn't have 10 other black males that would be considered highly qualified students. It really seems like SMU is content to do the following

1) Get whomever the coaches recruit
2) Compete for a few students that are worth Presidential Scholar
3) Take whoever else can get a 1000 SAT and is willing to mortgage their future for the SMU brand

I've spend an unhealthy amount of time trying to figure out SMU's "strategy". Best I can tell you, from speaking with multiple parties in Admission/Financial Aid - We just can't afford the scholarship packages required to recruit high quality black students. Of course, when I see programs like Community Scholar at TCU - I have to wonder if black students just arent worth that kind of investment outside of athletics.

**Full disclosure, i've poured over the SMU Institutional Research files, NCAA/Fed Report, and a few privileged sources within SMU.

you mention TCU....yet back on page 2 TCU is 4.8% (many of which are athletes and TCU has 18 varsity sports to 17 at SMU) black students to SMU's 5%

and what is your solution do just what Justice Scalia RIGHTLY stated was an issue and that is let in students that might struggle at SMU because they are not prepared for the work and let them fail based on the fact they are of a particular race or ethnic group

again when a particular ethnic group well under performs in academics at the k-12 level and there are entire universities (several in Texas alone both public and private specifically for those students) it is not difficult to understand or reason why those students would be under represented at top universities and the answer is not to get in a massive bidding war between top universities nor is the answer to just let them in because of their race or ethnicity the answer is for that group to improve their academic performance at the k-12 level and get in based in their individual merit which is what they always claim they want to be judged based upon....well unless of course that does not work out as well as they hoped

and again Asians both rich and poor and in between and those that have been here for generations as well as those that are new to the USA can get it done as can Indians and even Africans that are actually from Africa and that come to the USA for college.....so it is time that african Americans get it done like those other groups do and since they will only listen to "those with their experience" it is time they stop looking to others for answers or to blame and time they start sorting it out for themselves because Asians and Indians and blacks from Africa are not coming to the USA or living in the USA and looking to others for the answers as to how to perform well in schools and universities they are doing it themselves

1) TCU is by no means a model, but the Community Schoolers program is 15 years strong. The university saw an issue with lack of diversity, determined that cost was a major factor and then put the money up. Smu has a similar program, just much smaller - Mustang Scholars.

2) A more robust effort is needed. Both financial and outreach. We've proven we can do it when it's related to athletics. It will cost a lot of money to get more high quality black students - they are definitely in demand and other schools can offer much more in terms of cost and overall environment.

I'm OK if SMU says it's not worth the effort. I don't expect to see black enrollment ever creep past 7%. I'd only hope to see it be the best 7% possible. And certainly don't want athletes to make up 50% of an incoming class - there is no positive spin for that

[rodrod5]

i would be just as concerned about the kid of whatever race that works their tale off and has SMU as their dream school and is unable to go because someone less qualified is in their spot just because of the color of their skin.

This is not an easy issue. And bottom line is to demand any school meet certain percentages for students based on race or professors based on race or meet some made up grievance oriented curriculum is a unrealistic demand, based on the issues regarding race that are preveleant in society at large. Its too bad everyone has to dance around this instead of calling B.S. on it - just to keep from being burned at the stake in public by the grievance industry enablers.

People are barking up a small sampling when a giant redwood is standing right next to it.

Yes, SMU is doing a great job recruiting African American non athletes and it all because of the grievance industry enablers that we even have the 25 or so African American non athletes that came to SMU. Forget their concerns, because their are only 25 non athletes national that can get into SMU nationwide. Couldn't be because of lack of assertiveness to recruit qualified African American students. 52 of them is fine. Just make sure that the athletes can run, catch, tackle and put the ball in the hoop. They should not express any concerns, shut up and act like good blacks.

why should SMU have to recruit "blacks"

what is it that SMU or other top tier universities are doing to recruit to recruit Asian students or Indian students or even white students.....oh wait I know in the case or Asians specifically they are actually discriminating against them and trying to keep their numbers down

why does one group in particular have to be catered to and begged to come to a university or to come close to meeting the metrics for admittance.....we know that race and economics are BS because again Asians of all different economic levels and from all different ethnic Asian backgrounds do very well in school and in getting admitted to top universities and so do Indians and even blacks that come from Africa and that surely have a bit of cultural adjustment to coming to US universities do better than african Americans

and perhaps blacks need to do a better job promoting education and educational achievement among themselves Vs spending their time getting upset about rap party posters and criminals with long rap sheets getting shot when they fight with the police or refuse to drop their weapon

what is wrong with a university recruiting the highest qualified students and letting the chips fall where they may?

Scalia made the statement about blacks in general which means it included the ones that score well enough to go to any university. So it was not a rightful statement but I see where your mind is.

actually no he did not he made it in reference to the lack of merits to admissions based solely based on skin color and the issue has been studied at length and shown to be a valid concern

[Rebel10]

i would be just as concerned about the kid of whatever race that works their tale off and has SMU as their dream school and is unable to go because someone less qualified is in their spot just because of the color of their skin.

This is not an easy issue. And bottom line is to demand any school meet certain percentages for students based on race or professors based on race or meet some made up grievance oriented curriculum is a unrealistic demand, based on the issues regarding race that are preveleant in society at large. Its too bad everyone has to dance around this instead of calling B.S. on it - just to keep from being burned at the stake in public by the grievance industry enablers.

People are barking up a small sampling when a giant redwood is standing right next to it.

Yes, SMU is doing a great job recruiting African American non athletes and it all because of the grievance industry enablers that we even have the 25 or so African American non athletes that came to SMU. Forget their concerns, because their are only 25 non athletes national that can get into SMU nationwide. Couldn't be because of lack of assertiveness to recruit qualified African American students. 52 of them is fine. Just make sure that the athletes can run, catch, tackle and put the ball in the hoop. They should not express any concerns, shut up and act like good blacks.

why should SMU have to recruit "blacks"

what is it that SMU or other top tier universities are doing to recruit to recruit Asian students or Indian students or even white students.....oh wait I know in the case or Asians specifically they are actually discriminating against them and trying to keep their numbers down

why does one group in particular have to be catered to and begged to come to a university or to come close to meeting the metrics for admittance.....we know that race and economics are BS because again Asians of all different economic levels and from all different ethnic Asian backgrounds do very well in school and in getting admitted to top universities and so do Indians and even blacks that come from Africa and that surely have a bit of cultural adjustment to coming to US universities do better than african Americans

and perhaps blacks need to do a better job promoting education and educational achievement among themselves Vs spending their time getting upset about rap party posters and criminals with long rap sheets getting shot when they fight with the police or refuse to drop their weapon

what is wrong with a university recruiting the highest qualified students and letting the chips fall where they may?

Scalia made the statement about blacks in general which means it included the ones that score well enough to go to any university. So it was not a rightful statement but I see where your mind is.

actually no he did not he made it in reference to the lack of merits to admissions based solely based on skin color and the issue has been studied at length and shown to be a valid concern

Even if it was talking about the admissions situation he made the comment in general.

[Rebel10]

perhaps blacks need to do a better job promoting education and educational achievement among themselves Vs spending their time getting upset about rap party posters and criminals with long rap sheets getting shot when they fight with the police or refuse to drop their weapon

Man, you have a low stereotypical view of blacks.

[Rebel10]

why should SMU have to recruit "blacks"

Except in sports right?

[Rebel10]

I could peel this onion back very far regarding the status of black students on campus - especially black males.

But to keep it short: SMU does a pretty good job where Athletes are concerned, if graduation/retention/aid are the metrics of interest. Gets pretty scary if look into majors and the very anecdotal career outcomes.

Concerning the non-athlete black males, its very very bleak.

I didn't think much of it when I entered SMU in the Fall of 2004, but I really didn't have 10 other black males that would be considered highly qualified students. It really seems like SMU is content to do the following

1) Get whomever the coaches recruit
2) Compete for a few students that are worth Presidential Scholar
3) Take whoever else can get a 1000 SAT and is willing to mortgage their future for the SMU brand

I've spend an unhealthy amount of time trying to figure out SMU's "strategy". Best I can tell you, from speaking with multiple parties in Admission/Financial Aid - We just can't afford the scholarship packages required to recruit high quality black students. Of course, when I see programs like Community Scholar at TCU - I have to wonder if black students just arent worth that kind of investment outside of athletics.

**Full disclosure, i've poured over the SMU Institutional Research files, NCAA/Fed Report, and a few privileged sources within SMU.

you mention TCU....yet back on page 2 TCU is 4.8% (many of which are athletes and TCU has 18 varsity sports to 17 at SMU) black students to SMU's 5%

and what is your solution do just what Justice Scalia RIGHTLY stated was an issue and that is let in students that might struggle at SMU because they are not prepared for the work and let them fail based on the fact they are of a particular race or ethnic group

again when a particular ethnic group well under performs in academics at the k-12 level and there are entire universities (several in Texas alone both public and private specifically for those students) it is not difficult to understand or reason why those students would be under represented at top universities and the answer is not to get in a massive bidding war between top universities nor is the answer to just let them in because of their race or ethnicity the answer is for that group to improve their academic performance at the k-12 level and get in based in their individual merit which is what they always claim they want to be judged based upon....well unless of course that does not work out as well as they hoped

and again Asians both rich and poor and in between and those that have been here for generations as well as those that are new to the USA can get it done as can Indians and even Africans that are actually from Africa and that come to the USA for college.....so it is time that african Americans get it done like those other groups do and since they will only listen to "those with their experience" it is time they stop looking to others for answers or to blame and time they start sorting it out for themselves because Asians and Indians and blacks from Africa are not coming to the USA or living in the USA and looking to others for the answers as to how to perform well in schools and universities they are doing it themselves

1) TCU is by no means a model, but the Community Schoolers program is 15 years strong. The university saw an issue with lack of diversity, determined that cost was a major factor and then put the money up. Smu has a similar program, just much smaller - Mustang Scholars.

2) A more robust effort is needed. Both financial and outreach. We've proven we can do it when it's related to athletics. It will cost a lot of money to get more high quality black students - they are definitely in demand and other schools can offer much more in terms of cost and overall environment.

I'm OK if SMU says it's not worth the effort. I don't expect to see black enrollment ever creep past 7%. I'd only hope to see it be the best 7% possible. And certainly don't want athletes to make up 50% of an incoming class - there is no positive spin for that

Agreed.