Art Briles Returns?

[whitwiki]

That seems like the AD to me

[ponyboy]

Baylor actively punished some victims and intimidated others.

Who did the punishing and intimidation?

The school took away A victims soccer scholarship while her attacker was kept on a FB scholarship even though he was suspended pending the trial - he was convicted. While she was still in school, they told her that it was her responsibility to change classes if she wanted to avoid him.

Who is "the school" and who is "they"? Not trying to be cute; I haven't paid an ounce of attention to all of this. Do we know? And do we know how many people at Baylor knew of these events? Did Briles know? Did Starr? I'd think you'd be handcuffing instead of firing if that's the case. Failure to render aid or some such thing at the very least.

[Digetydog]

Who is "the school" and who is "they"? Not trying to be cute; I haven't paid an ounce of attention to all of this. Do we know? And do we know how many people at Baylor knew of these events? Did Briles know? Did Starr? I'd think you'd be handcuffing instead of firing if that's the case. Failure to render aid or some such thing at the very least.

You should do some research: Google -> Baylor Rape Trial. It all came out during the trial of a Baylor FB player and in the Pepper Hamilton report. There are probably hundreds of press reports on what Baylor did.

About the only thing in dispute is who (the individuals) was responsible for what. IMHO - they are all responsible because NOBODY did anything to help the victim.

[ponyboy]

This thread proves yet again that one poster can ruin an entire thread-because one poster routinely doesn't know the facts of what he is talking about.

My thoughts exactly Stallion.

Curious what said person does for a living.

Strongly doubt it requires any leadership / true decision-making capacity.

Lol, wow. Don't just blindly give in to Stallion's typical smear tactics. He and I have a history that goes way back and, despite my multiple good faith efforts to bridge the gap, he continues to delight in hating me personally. Whatever.

Reread what I wrote. I said I haven't been paying attention to this case and don't trust google to provide a clear, true picture. So I asked experts here. If you don't want to play, no hard feelings.

Anyway... Callallen, your points were well taken. We know that Briles knew. Thanks for pointing that out. Cheers.

[ericdickerson4life]

Do yourself a favor and go read the letter released by the law firm. Then, while reading it, keep in mind that Baylor hired this firm (which should provide a lighter hand on the matter than an outside firm that would be hired by someone other than the university). The letter states that "football" coaches got involved with the victims. That alone is Briles domain. Several victims have said that they had coaches speak directly to them. If you'd like to stick your head in the sand and say Briles was in another room, never knew anything about these situations, then I'd have to say you're a bit naive.

Also, not all cases were rape. The could be domestic assault (Shawn Oakman) or many other forms of assault without it be what we think of as rape. And not all cases have to be vaild. The fact that ZERO were reported is an issue. The fact that this surrounded one program on campus in particular (football) is an issue. The fact that two football players were convicted of rape in the past five year is an issue. The fact that several of your incoming football transfers had issues at their previous school that would echo the charges they are now being levied with is an issue. The fact that the law firm states (paraphrasing) that the football program didn't do enough with background checks of transferring student athletes is a problem. So, while this is an ENTIRE university issue (and a HUGE one at that) it seems to me that when the football program is the center of the issue it becomes an issue for the football coach.

I know. Briles is a nice guy. Everyone does the same thing. This is just the big schools/ESPN trying to bring Baylor down. This is a witch hunt, etc. I've heard it from all the Baylor supporters out there. It's pretty disgusting. Just think if the full report from the Baylor hired law firm was released. I think it's pretty obvious that there is a smoking gun in that report on Briles. Otherwise Baylor would have done everything in their power to say exactly what your are inferring. That this is the President or ADs fault, not the football coach. And things could go on down the road.

Enough is enough folks. This has to stop. And a Christian university should be able to make a stand on this very easily. The fact that the football staff remains is just as appalling. Clean house now. Stand for something. And realize that football is not bigger than a university. And that football is just a tiny fraction of people's lives. Hell, we at SMU should know that better than most with how abysmal the past 25+ years have been for us. We still move on and we find that our "worth" is not calculated by how many wins our college team puts together on the field for 3-4 months out of a year. It just leads some of us to drink more on Saturdays than others.

[peruna81]

Baylor does not want to become the SMU example of 2016 by diminishing the program from what it is now...they fear that they could have a 20+ year desert facing them...by doing nothing, and by doing the wrong things, they are continuing to pour scorn upon themselves.

SMU's and Baylor's situations are radically different on two important issues:

1) SMU did not perpetrate, cover-up, or enable an atmosphere for (alleged) felony-level crimes against students on campus...and,

2) SMU, while obstructing the media and NCAA in investigating their allegations, never evidenced pursuable criminal activity in trying to thwart the inquiries.


Baylor has continued to shoot themselves in the foot by their handling of this event. They have chosen to withhold the report from the public, hoping (I believe) that something will come about that will trump the news cycle away from the investigation. That isn't going to happen. The only positive that has occurred for Baylor is that the key people involved have largely remained silent, and let the attorneys speak...even that hasn't totally worked, and with the latest "big donors want Briles back" shenanigans, you have one more media feeding frenzy to enjoy.

I am a Christ-follower...I am also a pastor of a Baptist church. I am disgusted by Baylor's actions, and the manner that they have handled these matters. I will say it here as I have to those that have asked me about the SMU scandal in the Brazos valley: Baylor (and SMU) should hold itself to a higher standard BECAUSE of the affiliation (past or present) with Christ's church.

I am glad I went to SMU

[Digetydog]

It's actually not easy to find unbiased facts out there. Everybody's got a rag to sell. Which is why I'm asking for expert opinion here on those who've been following this story.

Granted Baylor doesn't have the structures in place to prevent and address the rapes. That's one thing that they appear to be addressing. And then there are the rapes themselves, which criminal law pretty clearly defines. But to me the question goes to who representing Baylor, other than the perpetrators and victims obviously, actually had knowledge of the rapes and what did they do with that information.

I'm no lawyer, which should be blatantly obvious. But did Briles know? Did the AD? Did Starr? Assuming Starr did not, he should still be out because he didn't have the structures in place to prevent and address. That's easy. If he truly had no knowledge, that's institutional and he's gone. (But having him as law professor or whatever is fine, IMO). You fire the AD as well for the same reason. And I'm ok with suspending Briles for a year if he didn't know.

But *anyone* who did know and didn't act... Well, there are criminal laws that address that too, most of which end up with people very deservedly in handcuffs.

Now if allegations are true that there are those who not only failed to render aid but actively punished the victims, there's an entirely different matter and a new level of culpability. There's a special place in hell for them.

Actually, your premise is fundamentally incorrect. It doesn't actual matter whether they "knew." Briles, Starr, and the AD were in charge. They had a duty to know or to find out. Their ship sunk and they were the captains if the ship.

As it relates to Briles, on multiple occasions, he accepted transfering players who had serious disclipinary problems at their prior schools - Oakman, Ukuachu. He kept players around after they were accused of rape without making any effort to find out if the accusations were true. His coaches were involved in discussions with victims.

[peruna81]

He kept players around after they were accused of rape without making any effort to find out if the accusations were true. His coaches were involved in discussions with victims.

and thus the other curious item about the Baylor malaise...why wasn't law enforcement fully apprised, and why didn't the DA do more than cursory work? The more you stir it, the worse it stinks...

[ponyboy]

Actually, your premise is fundamentally incorrect. It doesn't actual matter whether they "knew." Briles, Starr, and the AD were in charge. They had a duty to know or to find out. Their ship sunk and they were the captains if the ship.

Why is the word "knew" have quotation marks? You either know or you don't. And is there not a higher degree of culpability for someone who knows and does nothing versus someone who doesn't know but should have?

[ponyboy]

If you'd like to stick your head in the sand and say Briles was in another room, never knew anything about these situations, then I'd have to say you're a bit naive.

I hope that's not directed to me. I don't care about anything here but justice.

So, while this is an ENTIRE university issue (and a HUGE one at that) it seems to me that when the football program is the center of the issue it becomes an issue for the football coach.

Right. The question is how culpable is he and what's the just punishment. At the very least, he's suspended for a year and has a huge stain on his reputation the rest of his life.

I know. Briles is a nice guy. Everyone does the same thing. This is just the big schools/ESPN trying to bring Baylor down. This is a witch hunt, etc.

Again, I hope you don't think I would EVER make those arguments to excuse what happened.

...a Christian university should be able to make a stand on this very easily.

Agreed completely. There's no moral ambuguity when you have the facts, as Baylor leadership does.

[ponyboy]

I am a Christ-follower...Baylor (and SMU) should hold itself to a higher standard BECAUSE of the affiliation (past or present) with Christ's church.

I am a Christian too. Agreed, Baylor and SMU as Christian institutions should themselves to higher standards. That's what hurts the most. I have two sons at Baylor and both are devastated by all this.

[Digetydog]

Actually, your premise is fundamentally incorrect. It doesn't actual matter whether they "knew." Briles, Starr, and the AD were in charge. They had a duty to know or to find out. Their ship sunk and they were the captains if the ship.

Why is the word "knew" have quotation marks? You either know or you don't. And is there not a higher degree of culpability for someone who knows and does nothing versus someone who doesn't know but should have?

Morally, it matters. From a getting fired perspective, it doesn't. He failed at a critical part of his job.

[ponyboy]

The church has fallen in many different ways over the millennia, which is why ultimately it's a hospital for sinners and not a museum for saints. We all fall short, believers or not.

[LA_Mustang]

Come on, Briles knows/knew every detail about the Baylor program from what food was to be served at banquets to how his 3rd string LB behaved in HS. Anyone who suggests he wasn't aware of these transgressions is beyond ridiculous. Nothing happens at a major program without the HC getting all the facts and him signing off on it.

[mrydel]

Go figure. John Calipari says if it happened on campus the coaches all knew. If it happened in the kids hometown maybe not.

If Calipari says they all knew you know they all knew