Grade Fixing?

[SoCal_Pony]

I do not care what other schools did. I not saying other schools haven't deserved the death penalty, I'm just saying SMU surely did.

That is the whole point JT. You can argue that by NCAA definitions SMU deserved the DP, I understand and I actually agree...but by these same NCAA defintions you so defend, I say 50+ other schools also deserved the DP and when you have 50+ schools on the DP it becomes an impractical form of punishment. On that point we seem to disagree.

Can I assume you agree with mr. pony that the reason we continue to suck twenty years post-DP is that the Dallas Morning News doesn't feature SMU on page one of Sports Day obove the fold on a daily basis as well?

JT...don't be more of an a*hole than you already are,

[jtstang]

Anybody that disagees with you is an a-hole. You're real cerebral pal, way to show that SMU degree off.

And I'm not arguing that SMU deserved the death penalty by NCAA definitions--that's not an arguable point, it's a fact. I'm arguing that SMU deserved the death penalty by any reasonable person's definition, including mine.

[Sam I Am]

I used to work in prisons and came to believe that most of the time it was the dumb criminals who were caught. SMU was guilty as sin and not very smart about defending itself or recovering from the DP. aTM stonewalled its NCAA investigation. TCU confessed early and tried to get leniency. 5 times in 15 years is not very smart. Coverups don't work forever. Pye took the highroad and put SMU in the cellar. As for timing, Craig James may be right about the DP leading to the breakup of the SWC. The state schools wanted out and maybe that was inevitable. Now that we are a mid-level program with no hope of getting into the BCS, we are stuck with only a memory of how it used to be. It will never be that way again at the present rate.

[AusTxPony]

AND ON AND ON GOES THE FLOGGING FROM SOME! Nobody in their right mind could say we didn't deserve the DP, but whether the NCAA should have imposed it is an entirely debatable. IMHO we have certainly paid the price exacted and then some (Pye). To compare us to a State University is absurd in terms of money and alumni, (i.e. if it had happened to Alabama, they'd be back within 5 years...doubtless!). It does hurt that our school was the test case in the face of so many other schools who cheat as well and that we did not have the foresight to immediately re-commit to D-1 FOOTBALL thereafter. Ah, but that is the past. And for that mistake, we are still paying. I remain an optimist in the face of all the Stallions, jtstangs, etc. If that makes me a "sunshiner" so be it, but leave me to my optimism. It is unecessary and unkind to keep slapping us around for it. I for one would be happy to play at the top of the CUSA for the rest of my days. And I will always be a Mustang with pride and (gasp) hope. And I love these kids that work their hearts out to make us alums proud. You will not find me beating them up or putting them down. AND it is still deplorable that some BCS schools keep these non-student athletes around just so they can WIN.

[Danny Noonan]

Danny Noonan is incredibly naïve. SMU, with its small fan base, has never ever set the standard for what athletes were paid; no one particular school ever has. SMU merely competed as best it could. Please read this article and tell me these ‘schools’ are only paying a few hundred dollars… http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58965-2005Feb2.html

Every one of those schools was investigated and only was was found guilty of wrongdoing in the Means case. Alabama. If you think an Alabama booster paying one high school coach (granted, a large sum) comes anything close to the payroll we had, you are the one who is naive.

[SoCal_Pony]

Anybody that disagees with you is an a-hole. You're real cerebral pal, way to show that SMU degree off.

Actually JT, I disagree with a lot of people on this board...you are the only one I've called an a*hole.

But don't take it personally...your negativity leads to some of the more entertaining posts on this board.

[SoCal_Pony]

If you think an Alabama booster paying one high school coach (granted, a large sum) comes anything close to the payroll we had, you are the one who is naive.

Danny, I don't think that one incident with the Alabama booster was isolated at all. Read the article. Lang testified that an Arkansas coach offered him $150,000 or a job on the Razorback coaching staff. Lang also testified that he was offered illegal payments from other schools as well. The Alabama booster in question, Logan Young, made 64 withdrawals totaling about $291,000 from a checking account during a 15-month period. That sounds more like a slush fund to me and not directed at just one athlete. And Means, who played one season at Alabama before transferring to Memphis, testified that he never took the standardized test that was required for college admission, admitting under oath that another student took the test for him. This sounds like DP material to me.

So if you still think this was just an isolated incident answer this one simple question...Why was the payment so high?...I mean, after all, if nobody else was doing it, why wouldn't $10,000 suffice? I would argue that $10,000 would not have bought this kid because the going market rate was closer to $150,000. And if Alambama and Arkansas are both willing to PAY THE COACH, NOT THE KID, $150,000, I guarantee you other players on both these teams are being paid as well...and most likely in totality enough to warrant the Death Penalty...regardless of if your Board was involved or not.

[jtstang]

Actually JT, I disagree with a lot of people on this board...you are the only one I've called an a*hole.

I don't take it personally, I've been called worse by better.

Sorry to frustrate you so. Keep on thinking though, someday you might come up with a legitimate responsive argument. You've just spent too much time in southern California and not having to use your brain has started to catch up with you.

[Danny Noonan]

If you think an Alabama booster paying one high school coach (granted, a large sum) comes anything close to the payroll we had, you are the one who is naive.

Danny, I don't think that one incident with the Alabama booster was isolated at all. Read the article. Lang testified that an Arkansas coach offered him $150,000 or a job on the Razorback coaching staff. Lang also testified that he was offered illegal payments from other schools as well. The Alabama booster in question, Logan Young, made 64 withdrawals totaling about $291,000 from a checking account during a 15-month period. That sounds more like a slush fund to me and not directed at just one athlete. And Means, who played one season at Alabama before transferring to Memphis, testified that he never took the standardized test that was required for college admission, admitting under oath that another student took the test for him. This sounds like DP material to me.

So if you still think this was just an isolated incident answer this one simple question...Why was the payment so high?...I mean, after all, if nobody else was doing it, why wouldn't $10,000 suffice? I would argue that $10,000 would not have bought this kid because the going market rate was closer to $150,000. And if Alambama and Arkansas are both willing to PAY THE COACH, NOT THE KID, $150,000, I guarantee you other players on both these teams are being paid as well...and most likely in totality enough to warrant the Death Penalty...regardless of if your Board was involved or not.

Why didn't Arkansas get in trouble for this? Because it didn't happen. You shouldn't base your entire theory off what a known lier said in a newspaper article. Lang used his star player for his personal gain. Kid didn't even know about it, but got dragged through the mud. When Lang got taken down, he tried to take a bunch of schools down with him.

You're going to have to come up with something different than Lang's testimony.

[EastStang]

Let's look at some other famous violations. How about Michigan? Some serious coin was being paid there. Maurice Clarett somehow ended up with a pretty expensive sports car, but no violation there. Or the Aggies under Jackie Sherrill. ED got that maroon car from somewhere didn't he and not from SMU. Or the Minnesota academic scandel, or the Georgia academic scandel. There are mountains of other programs systematically doing illegal things. Proof is tough in these cases and there aren't many athletes who want to rat out the school since to be real technical about it, the payments are income and not reporting it is tax evasion. Why do you think the Michigan players got investigated by the IRS and had to pay tax penalties?

[JesuitPony]

How did this thread turn so ugly? Yes, we got the death penalty and have had a miserable time recovering. Yes, it will be a long time before we're competing for the national champtionship. Yes, Auburn and other schools have gotten off easier. Notwithstanding all of that, at least our graduates can spell our school's name: http://www.motivationalbuck.com/ViewMot ... px?id=3355

[mrydel]

There has never been a dispute over whether or not other athletes are paid to play. The issue is whether or not the Administration knew, the coaching staff knew, and the fact that they contributed to the coverup and deception after being caught. Also remember, the DP is to be given when you are on probation and then caught again, not just being caught. There have been a few instances where this could have been the case, but realize also, the NCAA had no idea how bad the implications of the DP would be, and after having used SMU as a "test case" they are now very hesitant to consider it again. If having out of control boosters was the standard for the DP there would be no schools in operation today. It was the Administration and the coaching staff involvement, and their beligerence even after the case was proven. But again, recovery from the DP was stymied by the complete clamp down by the Pye model and not the DP itself. With agressive restructure we could have been back in the game to have been considered by BCS conferences when the changes came about. We have faced the enemy and they are us.

[Danny Noonan]

Let's also not forget just how important it is to cooperate with the NCAA. We basically told them to shove it.

[SoCal_Pony]

Why didn't Arkansas get in trouble for this? Because it didn't happen. You shouldn't base your entire theory off what a known lier said in a newspaper article.

First, it is not what he said in a newspaper but in a court of law.

Secondly, the $291,000 withdrawals and the $150,000 payment were easily traced and also proven in a court of law.

Thirdly, although not as thoroughly reported in this article, it was known that Arkansas was heavily recruiting this kid...(they have their Stallion's as well).

Fourthly and most importantly, you did not answer the most fundamental question. If Alabama was the only school 'offering' this kid, why were they paying him so much $$$....because you can call this Alabama booster a lot of things, but unaware of the market value of these kids would not be one of them.

And finally to JT....good answer, I knew you had it in you.

[Stallion]

No the fundamental difference is that evidence raises no issue of a Lack Of Institutional Control which is the critical issue for Death Penalty consideration. This case which I believe to be true and involved many times the amounts involved at SMU simply involves a renegade booster and I have never seen any real evidence of lack of institutional control.