At some schools, the standards are a bit higher

[CalallenStang]

If Guthridge left UNC in such bad, bad shape for poor Coach Doh then why did Doherty lead UNC to a #2 seed in the tourney and get national coach of the year his first season?? Then the Tar Heels failed to win 20 games or make the tourney his following 2 years. But you are right, its all Guthridges fault...if its not Tubbs, its Guthridge. Please. It has become a trend with Doh now...his first year is his best with someone elses players and then the wheels fall off. It took UNC 3 years to cut bait on Doh...we should have done it after year 4 but unfortunately we couldn't afford it.

"The reasons you reference in this post have little to do w/why he was let go from UNC."
Correct PonyDoh, I failed to mention how he completely alienated everyone at UNC and there was a player revolt. Off-court problems surfaced after Doherty's first season, when star sophomore Joseph Forte decided to turn pro, citing his inability to get along with Doherty as one of the reasons for leaving. Then 3 players transferred because they couldn't stand him. Finally, he was fired after poor results on the court and constant complaints from parents and players. It didn't help that he had pissed off the entire UNC basketball family from day 1 by failing to retain 3 popular assistant coaches. Best year was his first year, poor results follow, assistant coach upheavel, hmm...sound at all familiar?!?

Doh had a team full of upperclassmen that Dean Smith brought in during that first season. Guth neglected recruiting. Granted, UNC wasn't in the situation SMU was after the Tubbs firing...they still had their pipeline intact. But to suggest that the talent on the team that Doh inherited from Guth was anywhere close to what it usually is at UNC is simply incorrect. Now, with the talent Doh had in year 3 (primarily Doh recruits), they should have won a lot more games than they did...and they ended up winning a national championship in year 2 of the Roy W regime.

Moodymadmen, you're a good poster, but like PonyDoh said, your comparisons are very off the wall at times.

[CalallenStang]

Also, Moodymadmen, you can't properly say that Doherty's best year at SMU was his first year. This past season was very comparable to the first year of the Doh era. Should we be further along? Yes. But to say that Doherty always has his best year in the first year is incorrect.

[CA Mustang]

Please see RPI history: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45254

I did see it and you are bragging about it? The Year 4 RPI is virtually the same as Year 1. What progress is that? Please also explain what happened in Years 2 and 3.

You may be happy, but I see a string of losing records with embarrassing losses at home. If you call that progress and are satisfied, then your standards are different than mine.

[Billy Joe]

Doh sucks and should have been fired last year. The 'Top 25' garbage talk by Orsini is nothing but a fraud to get alumni to donate more money to the Mustang Club. The people that defend Doh on this board are stupid.

[CalallenStang]

Please see RPI history: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45254

I did see it and you are bragging about it? The Year 4 RPI is virtually the same as Year 1. What progress is that? Please also explain what happened in Years 2 and 3.

You may be happy, but I see a string of losing records with embarrassing losses at home. If you call that progress and are satisfied, then your standards are different than mine.

The point is that Doh in Year 4 and in Year 1 is better than Tubbs in his last year, which may not be saying much, but it does negate the point you tried to make in this post:

If Tubbs' tenure is supposed to represent the low point, then what does it say that after FOUR YEARS Doherty still hasn't been able to achieve a better record? If that truly was the low point, then Doherty should have surpassed it and taken the school to a higher level.

[CalallenStang]

Doh sucks and should have been fired last year. The 'Top 25' garbage talk by Orsini is nothing but a fraud to get alumni to donate more money to the Mustang Club. The people that defend Doh on this board are stupid.

1) Had the extensions not been given, Doh would be gone...and I'd hail that as a good move.
2) The extensions were given (by Orsini) which is why we couldn't fire Doh.
3) Since we're stuck with him, we might as well see where we go next year.
4) Get that through your head.

[moodymadmen]

Also, Moodymadmen, you can't properly say that Doherty's best year at SMU was his first year. This past season was very comparable to the first year of the Doh era. Should we be further along? Yes. But to say that Doherty always has his best year in the first year is incorrect.

We can debate til the cows come home regarding which 14-17 season was Doh's "best" but that would be an oxymoron and too depressing. But you have to admit there is a trend and DRASTIC difference between Doh's first year and those that follow. In Year 1 with ND, UNC, FAU, and SMU Doh is an awesome 77-52. His Year 1 at ND got him the prestigious UNC job. His Year 1 at UNC got him his coach of the year award and cemented his "name" status. Yet in Years 2-4 at UNC and SMU combined Doh is a completely mortifiying 60-94. In his 2nd year he had the worst season in UNC HISTORY at 8-20 and the school missed post season play for the first time since 1965, think about that for a second. Even with the success I credit to him in Year 1 at UNC they were still upset in the 2nd round as the #2 seed. One can shift blame to Guth or Tubbs all they want but to go from 25 games over .500 in Year 1 to an eye-popping 34 games under .500 the following years indicates it is more then just that. Perhaps those theories are a debate for a new post, but the trend is clear...no post-season success in the past decade (since the NIT in 1999) and programs getting drastically worse after his initial year...

[CalallenStang]

Also, Moodymadmen, you can't properly say that Doherty's best year at SMU was his first year. This past season was very comparable to the first year of the Doh era. Should we be further along? Yes. But to say that Doherty always has his best year in the first year is incorrect.

We can debate til the cows come home regarding which 14-17 season was Doh's "best" but that would be an oxymoron and too depressing. But you have to admit there is a trend and DRASTIC difference between Doh's first year and those that follow. In Year 1 with ND, UNC, FAU, and SMU Doh is an awesome 77-52. His Year 1 at ND got him the prestigious UNC job. His Year 1 at UNC got him his coach of the year award and cemented his "name" status. Yet in Years 2-4 at UNC and SMU combined Doh is a completely mortifiying 60-94. In his 2nd year he had the worst season in UNC HISTORY at 8-20 and the school missed post season play for the first time since 1965, think about that for a second. Even with the success I credit to him in Year 1 at UNC they were still upset in the 2nd round as the #2 seed. One can shift blame to Guth or Tubbs all they want but to go from 25 games over .500 in Year 1 to an eye-popping 34 games under .500 the following years indicates it is more then just that. Perhaps those theories are a debate for a new post, but the trend is clear...no post-season success in the past decade (since the NIT in 1999) and programs getting drastically worse after his initial year...

You offer good points, but why is the success better in year 1 than in years 2 and 3? Look at who makes up the team. At UNC, it was a bunch of Dean's recruits. At SMU, it was a bunch of Dement's recruits. In Years 2 and 3 at UNC, it was Guth's recruits. At SMU, it was Tubbs' recruits (plus the Fab 7 which was a huge mistake). We have nothing to gauge years 4+ in Doh's career because this is the first place that he's been for more than 3 years.

[PonyKai]

Doh sucks and should have been fired last year. The 'Top 25' garbage talk by Orsini is nothing but a fraud to get alumni to donate more money to the Mustang Club. The people that defend Doh on this board are stupid.

Again, are you high? You want to fire a coach after three years immediately after you fire a coach after two seasons for a list of things that may or may not have been made up/embellished? And make this job even more of a tainted cesspool than it already is? Oh please let me know why that's a good idea.

[moodymadmen]

You offer good points, but why is the success better in year 1 than in years 2 and 3? Look at who makes up the team. At UNC, it was a bunch of Dean's recruits. At SMU, it was a bunch of Dement's recruits. In Years 2 and 3 at UNC, it was Guth's recruits. At SMU, it was Tubbs' recruits (plus the Fab 7 which was a huge mistake). We have nothing to gauge years 4+ in Doh's career because this is the first place that he's been for more than 3 years.

You make a solid point as to why I yearn for the Dement years after what I have witnessed these past 4. But 8-20, the worst record in the history of UNC was Guth's fault? Really? That team had 3 McDonalds All Americans and the UNC pipeline and they couldn't beat Hampton, Davidson, or College of Charleston at home? The season also saw the end of UNC's run of 31 straight 20-win seasons and 35 straight seasons of finishing third or higher in the ACC and it was their first losing season since 1962! Roy Williams would label that season a "disgrace" for North Carolina basketball and it had nothing to do with Doherty, blame Guth??? I'm not buying what youre selling amigo.

[Hoop Fan]

I wouldn't say it as strong as Billy Joe, but Doh's record and peformance here cannot really be defended in my view. 4 years speaks for itself. I also would agree that those bad losses at home when at UNC cannot be blamed on Guthridge either. Almost every coach when hired has some pieces to pickup. Thats the nature of being hired because 9 times out of 10 the reason the previous coach got fired is that the team was down and the outlook was not positive. Granted, Doh could not be expected to win a national championship at UNC based on what Guth left him, but you really think he can justify the home losses that Madman cites based on Guthridge? Those lossers were flat out ridiculous no matter who he had on the UNC roster and no excuse can be made for it whatsover just like some of the losses he's had here. External factors explain some things up to a point, but the preponderence of evidence on Doh is not good, its just not. And the fact that Doh got extensions to 7 years is flat out ridiculous, and while you can't blame him for negotiating them, nonetheless the pressure and expectations should rightly be ratcheting up on both Doh and Orsini big-time right now.

[PonyDoh]

You guys really need to look big picture and quit w/the micro whine. He was EXPECTED to suck mightily in years 2 &3, before he even put ink on the original contract. He was given unilateral control to gut the roster by any means necessary. Orsini never said, hey keep a few kids, even though you want the space, just so we can grab a additional few wins, He said, screw out, gut the squad and rebuild from the bottom floor.

When you have to give a coach, that sort of control of the program, just so he'll take the job, you're in for the long haul. Those situations happen tend to occur when rat out your previous coach, a local DISD legend, not to mention an honest guy that loved the school. The program had a Burgers and Cheer black cloud hanging over it when the guy accepted the position.

Year 1 he assesses the landscape, year 2 & 3 he slashes and burns everything, year 4 we see improvement, year 5 we get tangible results that show we're moving in the right direction etc. Just recognize this was the script and it was written 4 years ago. Now move on

[CalallenStang]

You offer good points, but why is the success better in year 1 than in years 2 and 3? Look at who makes up the team. At UNC, it was a bunch of Dean's recruits. At SMU, it was a bunch of Dement's recruits. In Years 2 and 3 at UNC, it was Guth's recruits. At SMU, it was Tubbs' recruits (plus the Fab 7 which was a huge mistake). We have nothing to gauge years 4+ in Doh's career because this is the first place that he's been for more than 3 years.

You make a solid point as to why I yearn for the Dement years after what I have witnessed these past 4. But 8-20, the worst record in the history of UNC was Guth's fault? Really? That team had 3 McDonalds All Americans and the UNC pipeline and they couldn't beat Hampton, Davidson, or College of Charleston at home? The season also saw the end of UNC's run of 31 straight 20-win seasons and 35 straight seasons of finishing third or higher in the ACC and it was their first losing season since 1962! Roy Williams would label that season a "disgrace" for North Carolina basketball and it had nothing to do with Doherty, blame Guth??? I'm not buying what youre selling amigo.

http://accbasketblog.blogspot.com/2005/ ... -8-20.html

For me, that 8-20 season was an exercise in humility and painful reality: we didn’t have the horses to run for the coach we had. The players played their best and the coaches coached as best they could.

If you want to blame Doh for any part of that 8-20 season, blame him for not stopping the bleeding. Blame him for not adjusting the game plan to the "talent" he had. THAT was his real mistake during 8-20, and I'd argue that THAT was similar to the mistakes he made here at SMU until that UAB game. Once he realized that SMU had a better chance to win by taking the air out of the ball, we started looking better.

[moodymadmen]

When you are coming off of 10 and 9 win seasons its easy to claim "improvement" but I'm not buying that either. Even if we had managed to finish at that elusive .500 mark that Doh can't reach I wouldn't buy it. Why? Take a look at our absurd, cupcake schedule and the results. We won 14 games...7 of which came against schools I have never heard of or I didn't realize they had a basketball program, 3 came against the 2 worst teams at the basement of CUSA that combined for a measley 4 wins total in conference this year, and 1 came against a bad UCF team that I saw in person-which rang hollow after getting destroyed by them by 16 pts in the conference tournament. So that means SMU went a stellar 3-17 vs the "meat" of the schedule. A 15% winning percentage vs the mediocre to good teams on your schedule does not sound like an improvement to me...and I really doubt that was anyones script for year 4.

[moodymadmen]

At some schools, the standards are a bit higher...part II
By Andy Katz
ESPN.com
Archive
Negotiations began Thursday between Rutgers athletic director Tim Pernetti and men's basketball coach Fred Hill to terminate Hill's employment, a source with direct knowledge of the situation said.
Pernetti could fire Hill by the end of the day and then fight over how much, if anything, Hill would be owed. Rutgers finished 15-17 last season. Hill, 51, was 47-77 overall after four seasons.

SMU finished 14-17 last season. Doherty is 47-75 overall after four seasons. Eerily similar numbers.