SMU President Got Fired in 1974

[ALEX LIFESON]

Yeah I'm right on this one and you guys are as pathetic as the same homer Penn St fans the SMU fans complain about. Its sad when you have your head so far up your [deleted] that you can't see the truth. The NCAA ruled in favor the Death Penalty, the Bishops Report confirmed enough to agree with it although they barely scrtatched the surface, the Board of Trustees never contested the NCAA penalty and in the world of public perception in 1987-not 2011 SMU got exactly what it deserved. From a legal perspective this was a SLAM-DUNK OPEN andc SHUT Case.

I have been polite and accurate in my responses. I respect your opinions...but you don't get to have your own facts.

I mentioned that SMU was specifically trapped by the NCAA in 1985 and they nailed us in 1987. I used the Bishop's Report as source material to help wih my timeline...but the facts they "confirmed" were after the DP...so I say again...just like Stanley's "relevations" and Clement's involvement...they are irrelevant.

Your opinions on money changing hands and whatever other gossip you choose to believe...are just opinions unless they are in the NCAA infractions reports. That's a fact.

I say again...I will happily buy you my book...and then attack my story...attack my facts.

And you cannot keep moving the goalposts. "Trustees contesting the penalty,Bishop's Report confirming though barely scrathing the surface, 1987 public perception, Penn State"...what is all this?

Dude, I'm no lawyer...but I debated at SMU...everytime the guy I debated did what you are doing...I knew I had him nailed. You can be right that we did a lot of stuff that was never revealed and you can have your opinion that we deserved the penalty. But that's it. You get no more.

I'm arguing the facts of what the NCAA knew, how they documented it, and when they knew it. You seem to want to introduce facts after the DP as if they are relevant.

Not meant as a dig...but Kato Kaelin just said O.J. did it...he said it today after the case is long decided. Kato's testimony is as irrelevant to the O.J. case as anything in the Bishop's Report or disclosed after the DP. Right?

Did he accept the offer for a "free" book?

[Stallion]

No pal-I've always been willing to take unpopular positions on this board when I know I'm right. I'm not running for Seargent in Arms in the Mustang Club or the June Jones Jock Supporter Club. I've already addressed his homer conclusions above. The Bishops Report found that SMU was running a slush fund since the mid 1970s during which they received at least 4 probations. There is absolutely no dispute of these facts. SMU never contested it. The Board of Govenors never contested. Bill Clements was running it. Sherwood Blount, Cox and the rest of the bagmen and Trustees never cooperated with SMU or the Bishops or the NCAA. I have no doubt that over those 10+ years SMU's slush fund distributed 20,000 on average per year when they were exceeding those amounts in years that have been established beynd any reasonable doubt with guys like Eric Dickerson, David Stanley, Stopperich, Reese et al. SMU will always be the Model for the Death Penalty. Unlike you I'm not willing to check the Integrity and Reputation of the University under my Cheerleading costume

[ALEX LIFESON]

No pal-I've always been willing to take unpopular positions on this board when I know I'm right. I'm not running for Seargent in Arms in the Mustang Club or the June Jones Jock Supporter Club. I've already addressed his homer conclusions above. The Bishops Report found that SMU was running a slush fund since the mid 1970s during which they received at least 4 probations. There is absolutely no dispute of these facts. SMU never contested it. The Board of Govenors never contested. Bill Clements was running it. I have no doubt that over those 10+ years SMU's slush fund distributed 20,000 on average per year when they were exceeding those amounts in years that have been established beynd any reasonable doubt with guys like Eric Dickerson, David Stanley, Stopperich, Reese et al. SMU will always be the Model for the Death Penalty. Unlike you I'm not willing to check the Integrity and Reputation of the University under my Cheerleading costume

And the shamless insults continue, getting schooled by dbone really got to ya huh?

[Stallion]

You don't get it-he got schooled by the Methodist Church, SMU which caved due to overwhelming evidence, the NCAA and the Federal Court. His argument has no merit. The NCAA didn't even have to investigate-SMU admitted everything neessary to establish its guilt beyond any reasonable doubt and the applicability of the Death Penalty. And all the Bag Men and Trustees who made ridiculous threats simply slithered away

[dbone]

I finally faced the DP as I wrote my book. We had a death in our family...a loss. There are 7 stages of grief...

1. Denial...we got that.
2. Pain and guilt...we got that too.
3. Anger...I got that as I wrote my book.
4. Depression...I got that as numerous people told me I was wasting my time...nobody cared...it's been 25 years...move on...
5. Adjusting to the loss...we need to get here.
6. Reconstruction...numerous coaches and ADs have promised this...none have delivered.
7. Acceptance...we ain't here yet.

I went through all of this as I wrote my book. I have accepted what happened...but now I'm angry and looking for a fight. Read my book and see why.

So I'm going to try to pick a fight with the NCAA...then I will have peace...and a party.

I think this discussion is important for us to all move through the stages. Otherwise we will continue to wallow in stages 3 and 4.

You're just another SMU fan trying to rationalize the most corrupt university leadership and athletic program of its time. You'll get about as much respect as Joe Paterno's son-SMU homer's will think you're cool but nobody else cares about your home cooking. But hey maybe you earn a buck from the Cheerleaders on this Board. The "taint fair" defense is for those that don't have a case-which SMU quickly realized

You're killing me.

I've read your stuff...you are up on all kinds of college football data...but just wow. I can hear your anger in your posts. You are a lawyer...argue with me...earn my respect. I'm just a [deleted] football player with two SMU degrees and an MBA...you got more...bring it.

But if all you got is attack BS...my mother wears combat boots garbage...really? That's it? You are losing my attention.

I'm giving you the chance to engage with me...prove you can hang. So far...I own you.

[Junior]

The main problem I have with dbone's position is the whole "if it's not in the NCAA's report, then it's a baseless rumor". That crap doesn't fly with me. Nor should it with any reasonable person. Stallion isn't 100% correct, but neither is dbone's position. Like always, the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle.

[Stallion]

Go sell your books to the Cheerleaders. I've posted about 5 times more facts than you have justifying my position. Your position is that "everybody was doing it" and the NCAA set up a "trap" which in any kind of due process is irrelevant to a case against SMU. What happened at A&M, OU and UT is absolutely no legal excuse to the imposition of the DP if the NCAA meets its burden. Everybody knew the Death Penalty was designed precisely because a school like SMU refused to clean up its own mess. It was the SMU Death Penalty before SMU even got it. SMU still had a duty to abide by NCAA rules-but SMU administration, Trustees and Govenor Bill thought they were smarter than the NCAA. "Taint fair" is a losing argument when each and every element of the NCAA laws authorizing the Death Penalty was easily not only proven but admitted by SMU. That's ballgame as I'm sure you found out.

[twogunsuppony]

TEAM DBONE. Debating on printing DBONE OWNS stallion T=shirts.

[Junior]

Easy red raider

[RGV Pony]

Stallion...

[dbone]

The main problem I have with dbone's position is the whole "if it's not in the NCAA's report, then it's a baseless rumor". That crap doesn't fly with me. Nor should it with any reasonable person. Stallion isn't 100% correct, but neither is dbone's position. Like always, the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle.

Fair criticism. Clearly your opinion. I obviously disagree...hope you are good with me voicing mine.

[dbone]

Go sell your books to the Cheerleaders. I've posted about 5 times more facts than you have justifying my position. Your position is that "everybody was doing it" and the NCAA set up a "trap" which in any kind of due process is irrelevant to a case against SMU. What happened at A&M, OU and UT is absolutely no legal excuse to the imposition of the DP if the NCAA meets its burden. Everybody knew the Death Penalty was designed precisely because a school like SMU refused to clean up its own mess. It was the SMU Death Penalty before SMU even got it. SMU still had a duty to abide by NCAA rules-but SMU administration, Trustees and Govenor Bill thought they were smarter than the NCAA. "Taint fair" is a losing argument when each and every element of the NCAA laws authorizing the Death Penalty was easily not only proven but admitted by SMU. That's ballgame as I'm sure you found out.

I'll take another bite.

Doubtful I'll get net positive on my book...but I confess...I do hope a significant number of SMU fans read and support my argument.

You put a lot of words in my mouth and you are introducing all kinds of flashing lights to distract the discussion. I did not make the argument "that everybody was doing it" as an excuse or use other schools as some justification. Other schools were doing it. Fact. Not an excuse.

Words matter. The NCAA is not a legal organization...it is a private regulatory organization. Therefore there is no such thing as a "legal excuse" and there is no such thing as "due process." The ONLY thing that matters to the NCAA is their rule book (and Federal anti-discrimination laws).

Let me try a different tack with you. It seems that you are an absolutist that SMU cheated...qualified for the DP...and therefore deserved it. I'm setting aside any differences we may have about payments or who lied to whom when.

What if I told you there are three legitimate means to overturn an NCAA penalty? What if I told you the NCAA clearly broke their rules to "trap" us? What if I told you one of those three ways to overturn a penalty was if the NCAA broke their rules in an infractions case?

You are an absoutist about SMU breaking the rules...are you also an absolutist if the NCAA broke the rules?

[Stallion]

OK you are stepping way outside your area of expertise. NCAA guarantees procedural due process under its Bylaws and SMU clearly received exactly that. SMU admitted the violations. SMU didn't exercise its right to appeal or even contest the findings of the NCAA. The facts admitted clearly establish the burden the NCAA had to establish in order to assess the Death Penalty. Lack of Institutional Control has never been more easily eatablished than in SMU case in the history of the NCAA-there is overwhelming evidence that SMU President, Head Coach, AD, Board of Govenors and Chairman of the Board of Govenors was both aware of the violations and intentionally approved of continued violations of NCAA rules even after SMU became eligible for Death Penalty. Slam Dunk case.

[dbone]

OK you are stepping way outside your area of expertise. NCAA guarantees procedural due process and SMU clearly received exactly that. SMU admitted the violations. The facts admitted clearly establish the burden the NCAA had to establish in order to assess the Death Penalty. Lack of Institutional Control has never been more easily eatablished than in SMU case.

Who gets due process?
Current Players?...no.
Former Players?...no
Coaches?...no.
Boosters?...no.
Schools?...kind of...schools are given some rights outlined in the manual. And as members of the organization have access to the courts and due process if they sue in those venues. Not within the NCAA structure.

Too bad NCAA spends millions and millions preventing anybody from ever achieving standing to be able to access the courts and this "due process."

So...I'm afraid...I'm still comfortable with my statement. The NCAA rule book and procedures outlined therein are all that matters to them.

You also never addressed my question on if the NCAA broke their own rules chasing us...

[Stallion]

Sorry the US District Court for the Northern District of Texas and the US Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit has rejected the claims of alumni, cheerleaders and students to assert such claims on behalf of the University. Only SMU had standing to assert lack of procedural due process on behalf of SMU. The players claims were also rejected by the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals. SMU admitted the violations. SMU received procedural due process under NCAA Bylaws. Slam Dunk case-Plaintiffs couldn't even withstand procedural motion to dismiss for lack of standing and failure to state a cause of action upon which relief can be granted

"While we give the loyal students and alumni credit for making a college try, we affirm the judgment dismissing their complaint, for we hold that some of the plaintiffs lack standing and the others have failed to state a claim for which relief can be granted to them"

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F ... -2802.html