Doh Evaluation

Stallion · Post by **Stallion** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:13 pm

I agree with HoopFan and others who have said since Day 1 that he has made a mistake in not getting a Coach with better ties to Dallas and Texas recruiting-now it may be he tried and there just wasn't that right guy. I think that is a missing ingredient on June Jones staff as well. On the other hand I think Doherty is probably the hardest working Coach we've had in awhile in recruiting and his contacts and recruiting talent have been successful in raising the quality of players as opposed to the recent past. I think if we will just be patient and he can get this team to about 18-20 wins in two years then the foundation will have been laid and he will be able to start convincing even better talent to choose SMU. Its simply not time to write Doherty off. SMU plays what 11-12 Freshman/Sophs and or first year players. Now is the time for a little bit of patience. See Scott Drew's Baylor Record - I don't like to brag :lol:

but I told you that was going to happen too. I'm not quite as certain with Doherty but give it time.

2003├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"2004 Baylor 8-21 3-13 11th ├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"
2004├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"2005 Baylor 9-19 1-15 12th ├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"
2005├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"2006 Baylor 4-13 4-12 12th ├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"
2006├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"2007 Baylor 15-16 4-12 11th ├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"
2007├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"2008 Baylor 21-11 9-7 T├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"4th NCAA First Round
Baylor: 57├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"80 21├â┬ó├óΓÇÜ┬¼"59

Treadway21 · Post by **Treadway21** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:11 pm

For those who know, how long did it take Bliss to build the program at SMU? I am not interested in hearing about the probation stuff. The program was strong when I got to SMU, but I don't know what preceded in building it up to that point.

Charleston Pony · Post by **Charleston Pony** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:54 pm

Bliss took over following Sonny Allen's 16-12, 7-9 finish in '79-'80

It took only 3 years to become competitive:

'80-'81 - 7-20, 3-13
'81-''82 - 6-21, 1-15
'82-'83 - 19-11, 9-7
'83-'84 - 25-8, 12-4

1st SWC Championship didn't come until the '87-'88 season (his last)

EastStang · Post by **EastStang** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:19 pm

Of course we had a payroll to meet under Bliss as well. And remember the team that beat UNC and then lost half of their conference games. That was a trainwreck. First, to those who question why Doh isn't landing the recruits that he landed at ND and UNC, think Big East and ACC. Recruits want to play in those conferences. Those are the two best conferences in college basketball. UNC is a marquee program in a name conference. ND has a pipeline of Catholic schools to draw from. A number of their best players came from Catholic high schools. But on the whole, he has been recruiting better than we've had since Bliss and without the payroll. As far as player development is concerned, I think that is a bit of a downside for him. The reason he lost the future National Championship team at UNC was because of bench issues and practice issues with his players. He has the tools, he has the charisma, he has the contacts (how many other coaches have MJ's cellphone on his "friends" list), and he has energy. Sooner or later the chips will fall in place and with some patience, he could be a long term coach with great success. Let's see how this season pans out before we start ripping Doh too bad.

CarMichael · Post by **CarMichael** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:39 pm

Don't doubt Matt's smarts and understanding of the game. He is exceptional on those points. As a Carolina fan, I remember him outsmarting Roy Williams with a tactical surprise and beating a national contender with a group of freshmen and sophomores. He is also exceptionally well-organized and hard working. You saw in the facilities upgrades his skills as a manager.

According to Ken Pomeroy's efficiency ratings, the defense has improved significantly over last year's, but the offense is still horrible, with very poor shooting from 2-point range and free throws (lack of offensive talent), also very high turnovers (inexperience). Doh knows how to teach the motion offense, but the players aren't getting it so far. If the defensive improvement holds up (currently ranked #113), I would take that as evidence of effective coaching. Eventually they will run the offense well enough to get better shots, but I wonder if this group can ever be very good offensively. A tweak toward taking more (good) 3-pt. shots might help, judging from their stats so far. (Sorry for pontificating when I haven't actually seen them play.)

Anyway, I think you have a good coach and should have a pretty good team in a couple of years. I know it's been gruesome for you guys.

Jumpshooter · Post by **Jumpshooter** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:53 pm

Let me first say thanks to all who have responded for doing so in a reasonable, rational manner.

Couple of follow-up points:

1) I'm not writing Doh off yet but I haven't seen signs that lead me to believe he will get it done.

2) I think Doh is getting too much credit for the Crum Center/scoreboard. That was further in motion than many would believe prior to Doh coming on board. He certainly helped but Doh isn't/wasn't solely responsible for those projects.

3) I don't think this team will win more than 13 games. Hope I'm worng but I just don't see it.

4) Bottom line, whether a guy is a great gameday coach or not, the success of any college program (football, basketball, whatever) hinges almost entirely on recruiting.

I know that probably doesn't sit well with many on the board who think that SMU football and basketball has been done in the last 15-20 years by coaches who 'just can't coach the boys up'. The reason why SMU hasn't been to a bowl game and has had limited success in basketball is because it hasn't had the players to compete at those levels.

So far, I don't think Doh has shown he can recruit at an elite level at SMU. First class -- SPencer, who is gone (I don't hold this against him.)
Second class -- Dia, TK, Malone, Walker, RK, Walker and Rhodes (IMO opinion the only guys that can be in the rotation for an NCAA Tournament team are Dia and Malone -- that is 2 hits and 5 misses)
Third class -- Williams and McCoy look like they can play at the above mentioned level.

Agree with the others who question why Doh hasn't added a connected Dallas area guy to the staff.

5) I was never wowed by the hire to begin with. Certainly, Doh has an excellent basketball pedigree having played at UNC, coached under Roy Williams, etc. But he was the head coach at ND for one year and went to the NIT. He was given the UNC job and basically took one of the three greatest programs in college hoops history and ran it into the ground. He was .500 or so in his one year at FAU.

As someone mentioned previously, he has never built a program. Had average success at ND and FAU, was a failure at UNC (that seems like a pretty difficult thing to do) and now is at SMU in his third year with below average results to date.

6) Two and a half years into his time at SMU, I see lots of sizzle but not much substance.

Again, thanks for the discussion.

ALEX LIFESON · Post by **ALEX LIFESON** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:57 pm

Three things that I believe to be truths.
1. Scott Drew is a crook
2. Doh works his tail off
3.And Stallion likes to brag :wink:

just messin' with ya Stallion.

mustangxc · Post by **mustangxc** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:49 pm

In defense of Doh, it was Coach Guthridge who drove that program to the ground by not recruiting his 3 seasons as coach!

Pony81 · Post by **Pony81** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:17 pm

I don't think SMU can attract quality DFW BB talent as we are known locally as a joke compounded by the Tubbs fiasco.

I don't blame Doh for going national. National recruits probably have a neutral opinion of SMU versus a negative one that our kids have.

Once we get to the NCAA, then you will see us compete for the 2nd tier DFW talent that can be successful in CUSA.

Doh is about as good as SMU can expect after so many poor years.

apisarna · Post by **apisarna** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:53 pm

Being both Carolina and Pony fan, I think we should really give Coach Doh a few more years. IMO, I don't think he should take the total responsibility in UNC failure during his time there. First, Coach Guthridge didn't pass him the kind of talented team that UNC usually has over the years. Second, Tar Heels fans have this lofty expectation year in a and year out. Last, Coach Doh hadn't really established his credentials in that high-calibre elites of Coach Smith, Coach Williams and Coach K.

Regarding his over-coaching approach, I see a lot more over-coaching. Coach Williams is a very demanding coach at both Kansas and UNC. I think Coach Doh has this demanding approach of playing "the right way" in mind. It's just that we, at SMU, haven't seen this intense winning approach before. At UNC, players pass on this discripline and working-hard attitude from generation to generation. Coach Doh only has a few years here and hasn't been able to establish this with any core groups.

I think Coach Doh's job at SMU is his chance to putting his name among top-coaches if he could turn around this program. So, he is not taking this job lightly. So, my point is be patient and give him some slacks. He can turn SMU around. I'm hoping one day that I will see both SMU and UNC in the top 25 list.

StangBry · Post by **StangBry** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:35 am

doh's reputation has not changed since he got ran out of unc and will always be the same - he's a great recruiter but his players hate him. that unc team that won the title...that was doh's players but roy williams coaching. i'm sure most of you know, but the unc players went up to the AD and said doh leaves or we leave and doh got the boot. players do not like playing for this guy. end of story. a program cannot be successful if this is the case. top notch recruiter, bottom tier head coach.

apisarna · Post by **apisarna** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:48 am

I think only McCant that really had a problem with Coach Doh. Felton and May were fine with him. McCant also had a problem with Roy, but it didn't really show in public. That was my view on this. Well, I think Doh knows more about dealing with youngsters now.

MustangIcon · Post by **MustangIcon** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:09 am

StangBry wrote:doh's reputation has not changed since he got ran out of unc and will always be the same - he's a great recruiter but his players hate him. that unc team that won the title...that was doh's players but roy williams coaching. i'm sure most of you know, but the unc players went up to the AD and said doh leaves or we leave and doh got the boot. players do not like playing for this guy. end of story. a program cannot be successful if this is the case. top notch recruiter, bottom tier head coach.

Speaking with former players at SMU they like playing for Doherty, like him as a coach, and respect him as a person. You could say they are just saying the right thing, but I think it is more than that. A couple of examples that make me think it is true:

- Rice vs SMU football game this season in Houston on ESPN. Derrick Roberts, graduated and now working in Houston, shows up to the game a couple hours before kickoff with Coach Doherty to cheer on the Mustangs. He has no affiliation with the team and if he just wanted to go to the game he could have done so with friends. He went with one other person- his former coach. Also remember that D-Rob is a guy that found him self very publically in Doherty's doghouse one game and on other occasions, but it doesn't appear to have affected their relationship.

- Donatas is a frequent attendee at games, pickup games, and other team functions. Speaks highly of Coach and has perspective from playing under 3 HC's here at SMU.

- No hard facts here but it appears that Jon Killen holds Doherty in high regard as well. Really it seems like the two have a little man crush on one another.

abezontar · Post by **abezontar** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:13 am

apisarna wrote:Being both Carolina and Pony fan, I think we should really give Coach Doh a few more years. IMO, I don't think he should take the total responsibility in UNC failure during his time there. First, Coach Guthridge didn't pass him the kind of talented team that UNC usually has over the years. Second, Tar Heels fans have this lofty expectation year in a and year out. Last, Coach Doh hadn't really established his credentials in that high-calibre elites of Coach Smith, Coach Williams and Coach K.

Regarding his over-coaching approach, I see a lot more over-coaching. Coach Williams is a very demanding coach at both Kansas and UNC. I think Coach Doh has this demanding approach of playing "the right way" in mind. It's just that we, at SMU, haven't seen this intense winning approach before. At UNC, players pass on this discripline and working-hard attitude from generation to generation. Coach Doh only has a few years here and hasn't been able to establish this with any core groups.

I think Coach Doh's job at SMU is his chance to putting his name among top-coaches if he could turn around this program. So, he is not taking this job lightly. So, my point is be patient and give him some slacks. He can turn SMU around. I'm hoping one day that I will see both SMU and UNC in the top 25 list.

What's wrong with the pants he has now?

smupony · Post by **smupony** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:41 pm

StangBry wrote:doh's reputation has not changed since he got ran out of unc and will always be the same - he's a great recruiter but his players hate him. that unc team that won the title...that was doh's players but roy williams coaching. i'm sure most of you know, but the unc players went up to the AD and said doh leaves or we leave and doh got the boot. players do not like playing for this guy. end of story. a program cannot be successful if this is the case. top notch recruiter, bottom tier head coach.

So StangBry...What is your agenda here?

Seems like you really don't like Coach D. You have claimed to be on the inside. So what are you seeing to substantiate your claims?