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[quote="EastStang"]Without talent its much tougher to win. Now Doh has to show he can coach. He has middling talent on this team, but still enough tools that if he can coach them up, he could have a .500 or better team. At this point, he can save his future at SMU by showing the world that he can coach these players to victory. That's what he has to do.[/quote

Strangely, this is very true. Doh's entire career comes down to him coaching a team up for once. The talent level is better then the results, and we aren't that talented.

PoconoPony wrote:

Dwan wrote:I disagree that doh is a bad recruiter....I think he is either bad at evaluating talent or bad and developing talent or a combo of the two. If you look at how pathetic SMU basketball had been, consider the fact the the DISD coaches hated SMU for firing Tubbs, then look at the kind of offers his first two classes had.....he brought in kids that had offers from Louisville and Stanford among others...well, he was bringing is some highly sought after kids....problem is none of them developed. Is Doh a bad coach or Doh bad at evaluating talent....fair question.

I was not paying attention to basketball during the Tubbs era; however, seriously question the accepted idea on this board that the DISD coaches dislike SMU for his dismissal. I have several contacts on campus who were very close to the program during the Tubbs era and they have very little regard for his ability to coach and particularly for his always critical and negative handling of his players. His players were never positively reinforced, encouraged or complemented. He was always critical and destroyed their confidence. He did restore dicipline to the program. It is my opinion that the DISD coaches recognized his considerable negativity and were reluctant to send kids into that environment. Tubbs challenged the DISD coaches to support him when he got the job with their support. They did not support him when word got out as to his treatment and lack of support to his players. At least that is the picture painted vividly to me by people who were there on a daily basis observing the program. This was a major factor in his firing as it was well known and put at the top of the list for Orsini to immediately address.

Your several contacts close to the program lied to you.

Whomever told you that "This was a major factor in his firing as it was well known and put at the top of the list for Orsini to immediately address." Seem to have not noticed that Tubbs was fired by Jim Copeland, not Orsini, 2 months before Orsini was scheduled to take over. Nor was there ever any mention in the media or SMU's own statements concerning his treatment of the players. The NCAA investigation, which uncovered nothing, was the only reason ever given. Now you're trying to rewrite history, because the old smokescreen fell apart. When your sources cant get something that simple correct, it calls into question everything else they may have told you.

Let me help you out, here is the Dallas Morning News story the day following his firing, verbatim:

wrote: Tubbs fired after two years at SMU
08:54 PM CDT on Thursday, April 6, 2006
By CALVIN WATKINS / The Dallas Morning News

SMU basketball coach Jimmy Tubbs was fired Thursday afternoon.

Tubbs had completed only two seasons of a four-year contract signed in March 2004.

Tubbs, 57, declined comment.

Retiring athletic director Jim Copeland made the decision to fire Tubbs and said in a statement, "SMU holds its coaches accountable for high standards of compliance with NCAA rules and university procedures in all areas of their programs."

Copeland refused to answer questions for comment.

SMU officials reached a contract settlement with Tubbs, paying him the remaining two years of his contract in full. Tubbs' attorney, Michael Pegues, did not return a call seeking comment.

Tubbs leaves SMU with a 27-30 record. The Mustangs were 13-16 in 2005-06.

Starting Thursday afternoon, Tubbs began to clean out his office. He took down two pictures, one of him posing with a basketball in front of an SMU sign, the other of a story in a frame. Also Thursday, he informed the players he would not return as coach next season.

Several players expressed shock when told that Tubbs will not return.

"I'm a little hurt," freshman center Bamba Fall said after the 35-minute meeting. "He took it like a man."

Fall, who set a season record for blocks this season, said he's thinking of transferring.

"I don't know yet," he said. "I have to sleep on it."

Dez Willingham, a sophomore point guard from DeSoto, said Tubbs was calm during the meeting with players.

"That was a low blow," Willingham said. "He presented himself well. He always talks to us about dealing with all facets of life. He told us to call him if we needed anything.

"I didn't see this coming. But it's out of our control and it's part of life."

Freshman power forward Brian Morris, who was given the nickname Big Baby by Tubbs, said he was too upset to talk.

Junior forward Donatas Rackauskas, who was not present at the meeting, will now play for his third coach at SMU. Rackauskas was recruited by Mike Dement, who was fired in 2004.

"It's going to be different," he said. "I would never think I would have played for three coaches in my career in college. I just have to make the best of it."

In February, SMU launched an investigation into the program when Max Williams, the grandfather of freshman player Matt Williams, said he gave Tubbs money to purchase meals for players.

Sources said Tubbs paid for meals for Fall and Morris, but out of his own pocket.

SMU officials are also investigating if Tubbs conducted practices for more than the NCAA-mandated 20 hours per week. Tubbs' phone records are also being reviewed to determine if he called prospective recruits more than the NCAA allows.

Copeland said in his statement that is not the sum of the alleged violations in the program.

When Tubbs was hired, Copeland said one of the main reasons was his ability to recruit some of the best players in the area.

Some of the top players have not come to SMU in Tubbs' two seasons.

However, this weekend, SMU was to receive campus visits from South Oak Cliff forward Ronnie Morgan and Collin County Community College forward Eugene Spates, who graduated from Hillcrest.

Tubbs was also in the running for Fort Worth Dunbar guard Chris Roberts. Courtney Wallace, a 6-8 forward from Woodlawn High School in Baton Rouge, La., was also considering SMU. "

Do the quotes from Fall and Willingham sound like they were glad to see the coach leave, because they had been so horribly abused by him? Does the article mention anything like that, anywhere? If it does, you will have to show it to me. It does, however, clearly state that Tubbs was fired by Copeland, not Orsini, in direct contradiction of the picture you so vividly paint in your own imagination. It talks at length about the investigation, and Copelands claims that there were more serious violations, claims that the NCAA's own investigation eventually proved false.

This post is getting too long, so I'll address your most preposterous claim in a seperate post.

PoconoPony wrote:

Dwan wrote:I disagree that doh is a bad recruiter....I think he is either bad at evaluating talent or bad and developing talent or a combo of the two. If you look at how pathetic SMU basketball had been, consider the fact the the DISD coaches hated SMU for firing Tubbs, then look at the kind of offers his first two classes had.....he brought in kids that had offers from Louisville and Stanford among others...well, he was bringing is some highly sought after kids....problem is none of them developed. Is Doh a bad coach or Doh bad at evaluating talent....fair question.

I was not paying attention to basketball during the Tubbs era; however, seriously question the accepted idea on this board that the DISD coaches dislike SMU for his dismissal. I have several contacts on campus who were very close to the program during the Tubbs era and they have very little regard for his ability to coach and particularly for his always critical and negative handling of his players. His players were never positively reinforced, encouraged or complemented. He was always critical and destroyed their confidence. He did restore dicipline to the program. It is my opinion that the DISD coaches recognized his considerable negativity and were reluctant to send kids into that environment. Tubbs challenged the DISD coaches to support him when he got the job with their support. They did not support him when word got out as to his treatment and lack of support to his players. At least that is the picture painted vividly to me by people who were there on a daily basis observing the program. This was a major factor in his firing as it was well known and put at the top of the list for Orsini to immediately address.

Where you got this ridiculous fantasy is beyond me, but I will state unequivocally that its beyond preposterous. Jimmy's friends NEVER turned their back on him. NEVER. How do I know this? I was fortunate enough to consider myself one of them. The people who knew Jimmy Tubbs loved him. He was a good man, and a good friend. When he became head coach he had to be more of a disciplinarian, and it wasnt really hsi strong suit. Many of the players from his days as an assistant coach saw him as a father figure.

What bodily orifice you pulled this nonsense out of I dont even want to speculate. Instead, let's go back in time once more, and take a look at what those DISD coaches actually had to say 3 years ago:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... ca070.html


DISD coaches upset with Tubbs firing

11:40 PM CDT on Thursday, April 6, 2006

By KATE HAIROPOULOS / The Dallas Morning News

Dallas ISD coaches and administrators expressed strong disappointment Thursday upon learning that SMU had fired Jimmy Tubbs as men's basketball coach.

It was a drastic change from two years ago when they rejoiced at the hiring of one of their own, and they pledged their commitment to send DISD talent to SMU.

Tubbs, who won a 5A state championship at Kimball in 1990, did not successfully sign a DISD player in his two seasons at SMU. DISD coaches said Tubbs needed more time, and that he didn't get a fair chance. An NCAA investigation into violations in the SMU program is ongoing.

"I'm very disturbed by it [Tubbs' firing]," said James Mays II, the South Oak Cliff coach who left the news conference announcing Tubbs' hiring in 2004 wearing an SMU hat. "He was on the verge of starting to breakthrough."

Goree Johnson, a DISD assistant athletic director, said that Tubbs' firing would hurt SMU's relationship with the DISD.

"It's going to set them back 10 years or more with the black community," Johnson said. "I don't feel he got a fair shake. That's not sitting well with young coaches."

Several coaches said that it didn't seem that Tubbs' alleged NCAA violations, which include buying hamburgers for players, appeared serious enough to warrant his firing.

"If they're letting him go because of a hamburger, and people have done far worse, it doesn't seem fair," Woodrow Wilson coach Patrick Washington said. "If there's stuff I'm not privy to, it's another story."

SMU said in a statement Thursday that a number of NCAA violations have been uncovered, some have yet to be made public.

Tubbs' connections to the talent-rich DISD were lauded when he was hired. But they did not result in getting Dallas players. DISD coaches said it wasn't for lack of trying.

DISD coaches said they could only do so much to help Dallas talent stay home, and that Tubbs was fighting an uphill battle.

"What he really needed was to win," Lincoln coach Leonard Bishop said. "Dallas kids want to win."

Kimball coach Royce Johnson said that SMU tried to find a shortcut to success, and hired Tubbs because of his connections. But he said SMU didn't invest in other parts of the program, such as facilities.

Johnson said he wanted Kimball star senior George Odufuwa to attend SMU. He said Odufuwa, who signed with Arizona State, liked Tubbs, but said he didn't think SMU was serious about basketball.

Mays said Tubbs' firing is a major setback in SMU's relationship with inner-city schools.

"Dallas is probably the hot spot in the U.S. in basketball talent," Mays said, "and you've got a college right here that can get no one."
[/quote]

I dont know, I'd hate to go out on a limb here, but that sounds to me like several local coaches didnt really agree with the little fantasy swimming around in your head.

Is it not bad enough that SMU stabbed a decent man in the back? Was it really necessary to make up this kind of preposterous lie, just to twist the knife after the man has died? Seriously, I cant imagine what your reason was for making up this story, it truly boggles the mind.

If anyone is wondering about the recruits mentioned in the first article,

Eugene Spates was a 3-year starter at Northeastern, his senior year he averaged 8 points and 3 rebounds per game as Northeastern went 19-13 and finished their season in the CBI tournament (beat Wyoming in the first round, lost to UTEP in the second.)

Chris Roberts went to Navarro JC before transferring to Bradley. He started this past season for the Braves, averaging 8-7 points and 4.2 rebounds. Bradley went 21-13 this year, their 4th consecutive season of 21+ wins. Roberts has one more year of eligibility.

Ronnie Morgan has bounced around a bit, he began at La. Tech, then transferred to Paris JC. Paris went 30-7 during his one season there, and Morhgan made the Region XIV All-Tournament team. He was supposed to transfer to LSU, following his brother, but when the LSU coach was fired the package deal fell through, Ronnie is now at A&M-Commerce, and his brother is at UCLA. Ronnie averaged 9.1 points and 4 boards last year. He has one more year of eligibility

Well said XTC. If the school wanted to go in a different, they could have done so without trashing the guy, but then that would have been seen as giving up on a guy two years in. As we all know the "NCAA violations" were a canard and many of us said so at the time. The interesting thing is that it had the unintended effect of handicapping Doherty's recruiting.

Thanks for the discussion. I was not aware how many of you supported Coach Tubbs and in your opinion feel we handled this poorly. But, then again I can't think of anything Copeland handled well. I have always felt the the so-called NCAA violations had nothing to do with his dismissal, and that surely there must be more to it, perhaps not as controversial, such as poor handling of the alumns, money, budgets, administration or raising money for a new practice facility (as examples).
However, I do suspect that due to our budget constrants at the time we didn't provide Jimmy the administrative support he needed to help him succeed and he simply couldn't do it all. He certainly couldn't count on leadership from the former athletic department. I applaud those of you that have reminded us how much Coach loved the school and the good he did for the program while he was here.

RE The XTC post supra.

I stick by my statements as to the behind the scenes state of the program particulary his relationship with his players at the time Tubbs was dismissed. You are correct that Copeland was the AD and made the decision; however, these concerns were pressing agendas items on the AD's table and Copeland went ahead and made the decision instead of wating for his successor. I did not say this coaching and relationship issue was the only factor for his dismissal, I said it was a "major" factor which weighed heavily in the over all evaluation of the program. They were among the serious concerns which had arisen which lead to the decision to release.

Not to disagree with your opinion, but why didn't we hear more about his problems with the players at that time? Perhaps you are right, but even today I haven't heard much complaint from his former players, have I missed something?

Kimball coach Royce Johnson said that SMU tried to find a shortcut to success, and hired Tubbs because of his connections.

That is the telling statement...and it failed.