PonyFans.com

SMU_Alumni11 wrote:

gord wrote:I'm trying to figure out how an "outdated" offense can be 2nd and 4th in CUSA in passing offense in 2009 and 2010 while leading the team to 17 victories over two seasons.

It was only good for those couple of years because 1) we did it in cupcake USA and not any big time team 2) the cupcakers went on archaeological dig to find the manuscripts of the RnS and figured out how easy it was to defend. Once those cupcakers succeeded like we saw in Tulane, they said, "Outdated, haha"

1) SMU is in the same conference now as it was just two years ago. Not much has changed.
2) The R&S has been around a long time (since the 80s as many people point out here). Are you saying other teams got beat by it for two years and THEN decided to try and figure out how to stop it? Come on.

gord wrote:

SMU_Alumni11 wrote:

gord wrote:I'm trying to figure out how an "outdated" offense can be 2nd and 4th in CUSA in passing offense in 2009 and 2010 while leading the team to 17 victories over two seasons.

It was only good for those couple of years because 1) we did it in cupcake USA and not any big time team 2) the cupcakers went on archaeological dig to find the manuscripts of the RnS and figured out how easy it was to defend. Once those cupcakers succeeded like we saw in Tulane, they said, "Outdated, haha"

1) SMU is in the same conference now as it was just two years ago. Not much has changed.
2) The R&S has been around a long time (since the 80s as many people point out here). Are you saying other teams got beat by it for two years and THEN decided to try and figure out how to stop it? Come on.

No no you misunderstood me.

1) when we got JJ our conference was unprepared for the RnS probably let alone never heard of it therefore we had the element of surprise. This advantage only pertains to cupcakes from USA. After couple of years getting beat by us except Houston and the decent cupcakes. Therefore if cupcakes can now defend and win its outdated and flawed

2) the run n shoot has been developed and used during the 80s and was considered a good offense scheme until the defense coaches develop scheme to exploit and thus making it useless. I say the RnS is only good for a surprise attack once teams have the film it's over.

SMU 86 wrote:

Rebel10 wrote:Most of the starters at the beginning of the year were not underclassmen.

That is true.

DJ3 - Senior
Holman - Junior
Jeremy Johnson - Junior

Exactly.

Rebel10 wrote:

SMU 86 wrote:

Rebel10 wrote:Most of the starters at the beginning of the year were not underclassmen.

That is true.

DJ3 - Senior
Holman - Junior
Jeremy Johnson - Junior

Exactly.

Did DJ3 play in the game on Saturday?

Johnson was out Saturday, I believe Darius Joseph played in his spot.

SMU_Alumni11 wrote:

gord wrote: 1) SMU is in the same conference now as it was just two years ago. Not much has changed.
2) The R&S has been around a long time (since the 80s as many people point out here). Are you saying other teams got beat by it for two years and THEN decided to try and figure out how to stop it? Come on.

No no you misunderstood me.

1) when we got JJ our conference was unprepared for the RnS probably let alone never heard of it therefore we had the element of surprise. This advantage only pertains to cupcakes from USA. After couple of years getting beat by us except Houston and the decent cupcakes. Therefore if cupcakes can now defend and win its outdated and flawed

2) the run n shoot has been developed and used during the 80s and was considered a good offense scheme until the defense coaches develop scheme to exploit and thus making it useless. I say the RnS is only good for a surprise attack once teams have the film it's over.

I didn't misunderstand you, I think you misunderstand how this works. The R&S isn't that different from the spread schemes other teams in the conference use. There are some differences, but by-and-large, it's the same. The other coaches in the league, didn't just start doing their homework last year. They have plenty of access to film and other coaches who have defended Jones' R&S. He's been doing this long enough that what he's doing isn't any secret. This is the case now and in any of his years at Hawai'i.

And I would halfway go along with your theory if you had any tactical football knowledge to back it up. You aren't alone here; most everybody here that claims this is an "outdated offense" wouldn't have the first clue as to what the offense is trying to do out there.

Just because it's not working now, doesn't mean that "everyone has figured it out." I'll let you in on a secret why it's not working here: talent. It's that simple. They haven't figured out the scheme; other teams have better players than we do. Jones has shown was pretty good receivers and a half-decent QB can do: win 23 games over three years. It's not happening this year because the talent has dropped off considerably. People here can reach the conclusion that defenses have figured it out, but in reality, it's the severe talent drop-off, and it doesn't look like it's getting any better.

I can guarantee you that if SMU and West Virginia traded talent on offense, we wouldn't be in the hole we're in now and there'd be no complaints about how much the offense sucks.

Oh how I miss Rusty Burn's Pistol offense and Justin Willis

SMU and West Virginia dont play against the same level of talent on the defenses they face, either.

SMU's offense was more talented than the Tulane defense it faced on Saturday, and yet we struggled. Same story against UTEP. Same story against Army in 2010. Same story several times over.

I don't know that the offense is outdated, but I do know that the offense has a problem. Whether it is outdated, or our players aren't being coached well enough to execute it, or what the issue is is for someone who is smarter than me to say. But the argument that the problem is purely talent falls flat on its face when you look at the talent of UTEP and Tulane.

gord wrote:

SMU_Alumni11 wrote:

gord wrote: 1) SMU is in the same conference now as it was just two years ago. Not much has changed.
2) The R&S has been around a long time (since the 80s as many people point out here). Are you saying other teams got beat by it for two years and THEN decided to try and figure out how to stop it? Come on.

No no you misunderstood me.

1) when we got JJ our conference was unprepared for the RnS probably let alone never heard of it therefore we had the element of surprise. This advantage only pertains to cupcakes from USA. After couple of years getting beat by us except Houston and the decent cupcakes. Therefore if cupcakes can now defend and win its outdated and flawed

2) the run n shoot has been developed and used during the 80s and was considered a good offense scheme until the defense coaches develop scheme to exploit and thus making it useless. I say the RnS is only good for a surprise attack once teams have the film it's over.

I didn't misunderstand you, I think you misunderstand how this works. The R&S isn't that different from the spread schemes other teams in the conference use. There are some differences, but by-and-large, it's the same. The other coaches in the league, didn't just start doing their homework last year. They have plenty of access to film and other coaches who have defended Jones' R&S. He's been doing this long enough that what he's doing isn't any secret. This is the case now and in any of his years at Hawai'i.

And I would halfway go along with your theory if you had any tactical football knowledge to back it up. You aren't alone here; most everybody here that claims this is an "outdated offense" wouldn't have the first clue as to what the offense is trying to do out there.

Just because it's not working now, doesn't mean that "everyone has figured it out." I'll let you in on a secret why it's not working here: talent. It's that simple. They haven't figured out the scheme; other teams have better players than we do. Jones has shown was pretty good receivers and a half-decent QB can do: win 23 games over three years. It's not happening this year because the talent has dropped off considerably. People here can reach the conclusion that defenses have figured it out, but in reality, it's the severe talent drop-off, and it doesn't look like it's getting any better.

I can guarantee you that if SMU and West Virginia traded talent on offense, we wouldn't be in the hole we're in now and there'd be no complaints about how much the offense sucks.

This is exactly the problem - talent. June has not recruited much of anything, and is actually getting worse. His "pretty good" NFL receivers recruited by Bennett had to bail out the June recruited QB that got benched at a FCS school.

Is the offense obsolete? Who knows. It is putting up similar yards as his non-Brennan years at Hawaii. Not sure about scoring. However, when compared against similar opponents, June's SMU teams, even excluding the first year from the numbers, with NFL receivers, with substantially lowered admissions requirements, has yet to perform as well as Rusty Burns' offense here, with no NFL anything. The major difference has been Mason's D far outperforming Bennett's. If June had Bennett's defense, we wouldn't be making any bowls. We have not gotten $2mil/yr out of him. We have gotten the $500k Bennett made plus he gets credit for bringing Mason in. And the incoming talent gets worse every year.

CalallenStang wrote:I don't know that the offense is outdated, but I do know that the offense has a problem.

What he said^.

I can guarantee you that if SMU and West Virginia traded talent on offense, we wouldn't be in the hole we're in now and there'd be no complaints about how much the offense sucks.

What if we traded talent with a non-AQ team that doesn't seem to have a problem scoring?

gord wrote:I can guarantee you that if SMU and West Virginia traded talent on offense, we wouldn't be in the hole we're in now and there'd be no complaints about how much the offense sucks.

I guess gordo is finally admitting that JJ and his staff has not recruited well in regards to the offense that SMU runs. But I can tell you that even Geno Smith might have problems with this offense.

So essentially the run n shoot should be left to nfl teams, it seems to complicated for players and besides Alabama no team can consistently find gems to keep this offense productive on a year by year basis. Lets just say its not outdated well then it's over complicated for the average college student. The QB guru has yet to find someone who can run the system like its suppose to with all its different reads and option WR routes. Lets face it, there's way too many positions and moving parts for a cupcake losing team like us to handle. If anything we need an offense that can adapt to whatever we are blessed with and compete with that. I feel in college football, with no draft, adaptability is the name of the game. If JJ offense need star studs then maybe he should try it out at the whorens as an OC. I'm sure Mack will try anything now

We've been told that the biggest strength of the RnS is that it neutralizes talent disparities. It's a scheme that is supposed to allow schools with lesser talent to compete--and win--against teams with superior talent.

OR-See-Nee wrote:We've been told that the biggest strength of the RnS is that it neutralizes talent disparities. It's a scheme that is supposed to allow schools with lesser talent to compete--and win--against teams with superior talent.

...and I have some swamp...er...prime land in Florida I'd like to sell you.