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we cooperated after 5 probations in 12 years-we cooperated after 3 probations in 6 years with an organized ongoing slush fund with full knowledge of the Coaching staff. That constitutes deliberate deception of the NCAA and without question by any reasonable, unbiased fan requires a much harsher punishment. That's how the game is played. You only get leniency if you play the game and fully disclose the violations-otherwise you're screwed.

So I guess in 1985 when TCU fully disclosed their violations, suspended their own players, and fully cooperated without ever having been on probation before....the NCAA played nice with them? ...Wrong.

Get over it. No program will ever be put through what SMU had to endure. Ever. Part of me thinks the Miami investigation was purposefully effed up by the NCAA so they wouldn't have to bring the hammer down on the U


When we received the DP, the NCAA was in a position of power. At present? The NCAA is worried about the P5 conferences breaking away and forming their own division outside if the NCAA. Cfb is way bigger, makes so much more money and now it's the power teams and conferences that hold all of the cards.

If we had gotten caught now instead of in the 80's, we likely would have gotten a bowl ban and loss if schollies. That would be it. We'd have gotten what USC got.

Sad

Stallion wrote:we cooperated after 5 probations in 12 years-we cooperated after 3 probations in 6 years with an organized ongoing slush fund with full knowledge of the Coaching staff. That constitutes deliberate deception of the NCAA and without question by any reasonable, unbiased fan requires a much harsher punishment. That's how the game is played. You only get leniency if you play the game and fully disclose the violations-otherwise you're screwed.

Fact: The investigators recommended the death penalty not be used.

CalallenStang wrote:

Stallion wrote:we cooperated after 5 probations in 12 years-we cooperated after 3 probations in 6 years with an organized ongoing slush fund with full knowledge of the Coaching staff. That constitutes deliberate deception of the NCAA and without question by any reasonable, unbiased fan requires a much harsher punishment. That's how the game is played. You only get leniency if you play the game and fully disclose the violations-otherwise you're screwed.

Fact: The investigators recommended the death penalty not be used.

True, they did "recommend" against the DP. But I always thought that was a con. Given what was going on in college football...the NCAA really wanted to show they were the boss. They had no infractions against us...none. Stanley was a media event and had given nothing usable to the NCAA. The NCAA then had Kliever ask us players to give up evidence in return for personal immunity. Because they had nothing.

So the investigators offered their "recommendation"...we naively took it...and the NCAA did what they had wanted to do since devising the DP at the June 1985 Special Convention.

And no...it's not time to move on...the continuing absurdity that is the NCAA prevents it.

dbone wrote:

CalallenStang wrote:

Stallion wrote:we cooperated after 5 probations in 12 years-we cooperated after 3 probations in 6 years with an organized ongoing slush fund with full knowledge of the Coaching staff. That constitutes deliberate deception of the NCAA and without question by any reasonable, unbiased fan requires a much harsher punishment. That's how the game is played. You only get leniency if you play the game and fully disclose the violations-otherwise you're screwed.

Fact: The investigators recommended the death penalty not be used.

True, they did "recommend" against the DP. But I always thought that was a con. Given what was going on in college football...the NCAA really wanted to show they were the boss. They had no infractions against us...none. Stanley was a media event and had given nothing usable to the NCAA. The NCAA then had Kliever ask us players to give up evidence in return for personal immunity. Because they had nothing.

So the investigators offered their "recommendation"...we naively took it...and the NCAA did what they had wanted to do since devising the DP at the June 1985 Special Convention.

And no...it's not time to move on...the continuing absurdity that is the NCAA prevents it.

What are you talking about? No Infractions?

Bill Clements admitted that we continued to make improper payments to athletes afterwe were put on probably for violations. Because of those violations, we lost our 1986 freshman class BEFORE David Stanley came forward. Nevertheless, Clements and company continued to allow payments to be made.

What are you talking about? No Infractions?

Bill Clements admitted that we continued to make improper payments to athletes afterwe were put on probably for violations. Because of those violations, we lost our 1986 freshman class BEFORE David Stanley came forward. Nevertheless, Clements and company continued to allow payments to be made.

The March 1985 (appealed and lost in August 1985) probation stemmed from Sean Stopperich and led to 1986 full loss and 1987 half loss of recruiting classes. My comment about "no infractions" was from the post 1985 probation leading up to the November 1986 Stanley media event and ultimate DP.

The NCAA had nothing to use against us until we investigated ourselves and gave our own report to the NCAA January 1987...which was the only "evidence" they used to hand us the DP.

Lot's of dates and confusing infractions from that time...it all blurs sometimes.

You get "they got nothing on us" despite the quite clear findings of our own university that we had a payroll to meet that lasted over several years (actually the Bishops Report traced it back to the 1970s)-in fact it lasted for at least a decade and that is quite obvious from the ESPN documentary. Clements admitted he knew about since at least 1984. The players admitting violations in Pony Excess are from prior years. Plus it was not just a Sean Stopperich situation in 1985 and not just a David Stanley situation in 1986. About 5 representatives of the university were banned even before 1986. They refused to stay away from the program causing more violations including Albert Reese and Ronald Morris and others. It was a sizeable payroll 13 in the 1985-1986 period-but we know it extended far wider because Clements admits he knew about in 1984, that we deliberately hid from the NCAA despite knowledge at the highest levels of the university. Guys like you are exactly why we got and deserved the Death Penalty. You are Bill Clements-You are the Penn St President. You hide behind deception and lack of disclosure. You lack a moral compass of right and wrong that is beneath the standards of a great university. You parce the evidence the NCAA had from the TRUTH. You are saying SMU should have covered up a decade long slush fund for a 5th time-you suggest that despite the fact that the David Stanley situation and Bill Clements admissions called into question the basic core integrity of the university.

The odd thing about all of this is that there is truth in both what dbone is saying as well as what Stallion is saying. It is a complex issue. A lot of issues in play at the same time back then. When we try to make since of it twenty five years later it becomes almost impossible. One thing remains constant however, the NCAA was cesspool back then and remains so today.

Why are we still having heated debates over something that happened 25 years ago? It isn't like we can go back and not receive the DP. And the causes, reasons, injustices and so forth aren't going to change.

We are starting to get good national pub without the DP being mentioned so the rest of the world is starting to notice we are making post season bowls and have an exciting Men's BB coach with great recruiting.

Instead, we seem continue to act like crazed Iranians during Ramadan. We flail our flesh with barbed whips to illustrate our atonement for acts committed over a generation ago.

Just out of curiosity, what does Bill Clements and others have to do with MSU?

Because it goes to a core issue-Are we going to run a clean program that we can be proud of that doesn't smear the reputation of the University

Stallion wrote:You get "they got nothing on us" despite the quite clear findings of our own university that we had a payroll to meet that lasted over several years (actually the Bishops Report traced it back to the 1970s)-in fact it lasted for at least a decade and that is quite obvious from the ESPN documentary. Clements admitted he knew about since at least 1984. The players admitting violations in Pony Excess are from prior years. Plus it was not just a Sean Stopperich situation in 1985 and not just a David Stanley situation in 1986. About 5 representatives of the university were banned even before 1986. They refused to stay away from the program causing more violations including Albert Reese and Ronald Morris and others. It was a sizeable payroll 13 in the 1985-1986 period-but we know it extended far wider because Clements admits he knew about in 1984, that we deliberately hid from the NCAA despite knowledge at the highest levels of the university. Guys like you are exactly why we got and deserved the Death Penalty. You are Bill Clements-You are the Penn St President. You hide behind deception and lack of disclosure. You lack a moral compass of right and wrong that is beneath the standards of a great university. You parce the evidence the NCAA had from the TRUTH. You are saying SMU should have covered up a decade long slush fund for a 5th time-you suggest that despite the fact that the David Stanley situation and Bill Clements admissions called into question the basic core integrity of the university.

Someone told me you were a lawyer...there are so many ways I could destroy your emotional rant above...but just let me offer some advice...use facts and dates and logic.

From August 1985 through Stanley's 1986 revelations...the NCAA had no evidence against us. Fact. Stanley did not allow his allegations to be used by the NCAA. Fact. Therefore the NCAA couldn't use Stanley. Fact. The NCAA had Dr. Lonnie Kliever in January 1987 meet with us players and asked us to offer up any evidence of any violation...because they had nothing usable against us. Fact.

Now you want to bring up information from the Bishop's Report (June 1987) but it was 4 months after the DP. You want to bring up Clement's admissions of knowledge with the DMN editorial board? Fine...March 1987...the month after the DP. The 5 boosters disassociated? March 1985 and included in the August 1985 probation, not the 1987 DP. I can play this all day.

The NCAA had nothing on SMU until we handed them a report with details of money and number of players...with no names. In essence we turned ourselves in. Fact. Read that again Stallion...we gave them the only evidence used against us for the DP. We turned ourselves in. FACT.

As for your inside information regarding my morality...ok Carnac...find me where I said anything we did was good...or moral. I did judge one man over all as the one responsible. Sorry, it wasn't Clements or Sherwood.

Further, I never suggested that SMU should have covered up anything. I presented the options our officials had in the 1985-86 timeframe. And my argument was they had no way out...(thus the title of my book, The Pony Trap) You want to tell the truth? Fine...Death Penalty. You want to cover up and keep paying? Fine...immoral and will lead to Death Penalty.

So let's say you are the Head Coach, AD, or president of SMU...what would you have done? And by the way...as soon as you answer...you're fired. It's called context...and it exists in the real world.

Lastly...David Whitford is re-releasing his book, A Payroll to Meet, September 1st. So we ain't the only ones rehashing this garbage after 25 years.

Again you are playing a game. You are parsing what the NCAA had from the TRUTH. You are Bill Clements. You are the Penn St President. You are suggesting a 5th SMU cover-up. Everything I posted is completely true. I'm fully aware of every distinction you attempt to make-you are distinguishing the information known at the times THAT SMU WAS DELIBERATING FAILING TO DISCLOSE THE TRUTH. The fact that Stanley and your teammates failed to cooperate does not equal your conclusion that there is no evidence. There is overwhelming legal evidence that SMU had 13-15 player slush fund. Why? Because Bill Clements admitted it. Sherwood Blount admitted it to SMU officials. SMU admitted it. Open and shut case. It is FACT-whether the NCAA could prove it or not. The fact that the "NCAA had nothing on us" is a an embarrassing excuse for you to write a rip-off book to sell to cheerleader SMU fans that don't want to know the TRUTH and deal with the corruption at the core of the university. All you need to know to determine SMU deserved the Death Penalty is to understand that AFTER 4 probations in 11 years-SMU's Board of Trustees(executive committee), President, AD, Head Coach all agreed to continue to meet Payroll. That's it. SMU refused to clean up their program 4 times in a decade and the NCAA was fully justified after the 5th probation to do what SMU refused to do.

Stallion...I like to play with you...I can read your blood pressure gauge in your writing. So hateful...so vindictive...so condescending...so pure.

You read my mind...read my morality...read my intentions...yet, you haven't read my book. That makes you so...uninformed.

If you cannot afford my book...I offer you again...I will happily give you one.

In the mean time...move on from your straw men. Nobody is making the argument that SMU is innocent. The argument is that the NCAA was and is corrupt...the argument is that they selectively targeted us for the same things that were going on all over the country...and in many cases (Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M)...much worse than we were doing.

So lighten up...let go...and accept the fact that I got you...again.

Look pal I bought the selective enforcement BS for the first 4 times just like you. Then that lie was exposed by the Truth, SMU's leaders pepetuated that crap. SMU lied to the NCAA and they lied to their own fanbase that they werte serious about running a clean program. The fact is SMU ran a decade long slush fund. The excuses simply do not matter-there was absolutely no excuse for the continued violation of rules for a 5th time. The "Tain't Fair" Argument is a losing argument for 5 time cheaters. NCAA stepped in because SMU couldn't clean up its own program. The NCAA was fully justified.