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if marshall had played a decent ooc schedule they would have respect.

PonySnob wrote:

fifty wrote:Marshall will make an access bowl and get devastated by a top 10 team.

And show one more time why teams from the lesser conferences don't belong in those games.


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Only 1 of the "BCS Buster" teams didn't belong in a big game. Rhymes with "shmawaii".

SMU2007 wrote:Fan apathy is never going to improve until we start a) beating teams people care about and b) are nationally relevant and really until we are in a real conference.

Marshall is undefeated right now. No one cares. Conference affiliation is king.

If we are going to stay in a second tier of d1 football we might as well close up shop. Our only hope is somehow cracking the p5 and we have a LONG way to any prayer of that happening.

If we were 8-0 we would be a top five team with our schedule and the talk of the country. No one cares about Marshall because of their cream puff schedule and the fact that it's located in Huntington, WV. Not because they are in a "inferior conference". If you play a tough schedule, it doesn't matter what conference you are in, you will get recognition eventually.

Time out. SMU today and Pacific (UOP) in 1995 are entirely different cases. I speak from some experience b/c I grew up in California, my dad was born and raised in Stockton (where UOP is located) and is a UOP graduate, and my grandfather was one of the founding patrons of the UOP school of pharmacy. I did not grow up in Stockton, but I did grow up around UOP and attended many UOP football games as a child. So while I am admittedly not an expert on football, I do recall some of the facts surrounding the termination of the program there. The article makes it sound like it came out of the blue and was some kind of shocker, but that is not really correct. Nor does UOP's experience in 1995 translate to SMU today.

Yes, UOP Tiger football did have some history and some prominent alumni. In fact, my dad, who attended in the early 1950s tells stories about games vs. Cal, Stanford, and other major schools where the Tigers would win. But by 1995 the program was running completely on fumes. In those last years, UOP was playing in the Big West and would travel around the country playing pay-for-play games against major programs just to try and make ends meet. I remember one game in particular towards the end where UOP played at Nebraska and lost something like 80-0. The financial situation of the athletic program had become simply untenable and something had to give. Even the pay-for-play beat downs didn't bring in nearly enough revenue. Perhaps more importantly, there were really no future prospects. UOP did not have the resources to build up the program ala TCU or schools like that. It was just a perpetual downward spiral and money black hole. So when the program was cancelled in 1995, I was not surprised at all. Nor was anyone in my family; it had become inevitable.

Yes, SMU football has fallen on hard times this year. But the program has access to resources and a conference affiliation that UOP would have killed for in 1995. I love UOP, but it is simply not the school SMU is. I think UOP's endowment is less than 1/3 the size of SMUs, and UOP does not have anywhere near the same number of big money alumni who can write massive checks to underwrite the program. SMU football sucks this year, but we've recently played in 4 bowl games and even beaten the occasional marginal BCS program in the past few years. UOP hadn't sniffed that kind of success for decades when they pulled the plug.

Finally, the biggest difference between SMU football today and UOP football in 1995 is that there is a path forward for SMU. Despite the problems this year, the right coach and the right staff has the potential to turn SMU around relatively quickly. We may not be playing in the Big-12, but the AAC is not all that bad and gives SMU national exposure. And it is possible that sustained success at SMU could result in an invitation to a bigger conference. Yes, SMU alumni and students need to step up and actually start supporting the program so that it can become self-sustaining and reach its goals, but unlike at UOP in 1995, that is actually possible at SMU despite our failings so far.

Bottom line. . .do not despair. This season is horrid no doubt. But SMU football today IS NOT UOP football in 1995.

03Mustang wrote:I saw a story about UAB Football being in danger of folding after 2016 today (http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.co ... m-growing/), and the reference to the University of the Pacific got me to do a little Google research on other schools that have reached a point of no return. The link below is to an article from 2005 that looks back on when the program dropped football completely from the D-1 level 10 years prior.

I realize that there is supposedly a "commitment" to the program here, but read this article and take a look at the similarities in the situation at SMU right now and what Pacific faced in 1995. Lack of faculty support, a major deficit, dependence on a few major (older) boosters to support the program, reliance on beatdown games for extra cash, and a general dismissal of the importance of the sport around the administration.

I do not know if football is in danger at SMU, and I hope that there is nothing to worry about. It is ridiculous to assume that everything will work out, however, given how little attention our program gets overall, the apathy toward the program from our alumni base, students, and administration, and the fact that we are essentially out of the mix for a P5 spot at this point. If we get it wrong on this hire and cannot bring back the support of the younger alumni and the community at large within the next few years, I do not think that it is farfetched to see how this might be our ultimate fate.

http://www.recordnet.com/article/200512 ... /512180337

UAB is in a unique situation due to the fact that they share a Board with the entire UA system. Furthermore, their Board is dominated by people who view Roll Tide as the Flagship of the system. They actively do things to keep UAB below Roll Tide.

Imagine if SMU's Board of Trustees managed to get control of TCU. SMU would be in the B12 and TCU would be in the Sunbelt within 5 years.

Good input 1983. I don't think it's likely we go this route, just noting that some of the challenges are the same.

We had this conversation in the early 90s when I was there. If we survived then, I'm not too worried that we won't "survive" now.

Good post 1983'. You're exactly correct in your summary.

SMU's only real screw-up is letting JJ off the hook since the ASU debacle. Otherwise the commitment has been there from my viewpoint. JJ let the team, the fans, & most of all his employer (SMU) down. I don't see a lot of fault in SMU's responsibilty & COMMITMENT since 2008.

My only real gripe on SMU's part is how & why they didn't hold $$$ back (on his contract) since JJ quit recruiting several years back??? That's part of his job description which he should have been held accountable. In other words, don't pay him the full contract!!!

Coaches are paid alot & more times than not - they're paid more than what they're worth. Ours was a prime example.

In the real word (private sector), more times than not, he would have been canned w/o pay a long time ago.

Our media contract is light years better than anything UOP has probably ever had. Having a solid respectable football program is the best thing SMU can have going forward. Every game this season has been nationally televised. BTW, UAB being said in the same sentence as SMU is a joke.

1983 Cotton Bowl wrote:Time out. SMU today and Pacific (UOP) in 1995 are entirely different cases. I speak from some experience b/c I grew up in California, my dad was born and raised in Stockton (where UOP is located) and is a UOP graduate, and my grandfather was one of the founding patrons of the UOP school of pharmacy. I did not grow up in Stockton, but I did grow up around UOP and attended many UOP football games as a child. So while I am admittedly not an expert on football, I do recall some of the facts surrounding the termination of the program there. The article makes it sound like it came out of the blue and was some kind of shocker, but that is not really correct. Nor does UOP's experience in 1995 translate to SMU today.

Yes, UOP Tiger football did have some history and some prominent alumni. In fact, my dad, who attended in the early 1950s tells stories about games vs. Cal, Stanford, and other major schools where the Tigers would win. But by 1995 the program was running completely on fumes. In those last years, UOP was playing in the Big West and would travel around the country playing pay-for-play games against major programs just to try and make ends meet. I remember one game in particular towards the end where UOP played at Nebraska and lost something like 80-0. The financial situation of the athletic program had become simply untenable and something had to give. Even the pay-for-play beat downs didn't bring in nearly enough revenue. Perhaps more importantly, there were really no future prospects. UOP did not have the resources to build up the program ala TCU or schools like that. It was just a perpetual downward spiral and money black hole. So when the program was cancelled in 1995, I was not surprised at all. Nor was anyone in my family; it had become inevitable.

Yes, SMU football has fallen on hard times this year. But the program has access to resources and a conference affiliation that UOP would have killed for in 1995. I love UOP, but it is simply not the school SMU is. I think UOP's endowment is less than 1/3 the size of SMUs, and UOP does not have anywhere near the same number of big money alumni who can write massive checks to underwrite the program. SMU football sucks this year, but we've recently played in 4 bowl games and even beaten the occasional marginal BCS program in the past few years. UOP hadn't sniffed that kind of success for decades when they pulled the plug.

Finally, the biggest difference between SMU football today and UOP football in 1995 is that there is a path forward for SMU. Despite the problems this year, the right coach and the right staff has the potential to turn SMU around relatively quickly. We may not be playing in the Big-12, but the AAC is not all that bad and gives SMU national exposure. And it is possible that sustained success at SMU could result in an invitation to a bigger conference. Yes, SMU alumni and students need to step up and actually start supporting the program so that it can become self-sustaining and reach its goals, but unlike at UOP in 1995, that is actually possible at SMU despite our failings so far.

Bottom line. . .do not despair. This season is horrid no doubt. But SMU football today IS NOT UOP football in 1995.

^^THIS^^ A closer approximation to Pacific would be our friends at Rice. Even though it looks like they're going to have a wining or 500 season, they're up against a lot more than SMU is going forward.

NavyCrimson wrote:Good post 1983'. You're exactly correct in your summary.

SMU's only real screw-up is letting JJ off the hook since the ASU debacle. Otherwise the commitment has been there from my viewpoint. JJ let the team, the fans, & most of all his employer (SMU) down. I don't see a lot of fault in SMU's responsibilty & COMMITMENT since 2008.

My only real gripe on SMU's part is how & why they didn't hold $$$ back (on his contract) since JJ quit recruiting several years back??? That's part of his job description which he should have been held accountable. In other words, don't pay him the full contract!!!

Coaches are paid alot & more times than not - they're paid more than what they're worth. Ours was a prime example.

In the real word (private sector), more times than not, he would have been canned w/o pay a long time ago.

In the real world in Texas most employees don't have a contract. Any real world employee that has a contract that has things like buyout provisions and changes the relationship from "at-will" would not be canned w/o pay. The mistake SMU made was not calling JJ out for his ASU BS when all indications are they could have made an argument for dismissing him for cause. Remember at the time though we were looking at several straight bowl games, the best QB recruit class since the 80's on paper and no opportunity to find a replacement of anywhere close to JJ's stature because of the timing. It was a mistake not to fire him given his attitude since that time, but I can understand why it happened and definitely forgive SMU for staying with him.

BTW 03Mustang, I love the fact that you linked an article from the Stockton Record. The last time I looked at the Record was to read my grandpa's obituary many years ago. Glad to see that it's still going. I don't really agree with a lot of the article though. It makes it sound like it was a huge surprise when UOP dropped football and that it wasn't really about finances, but rather to appease the faculty. Granted I'm not an insider, but that's never been my understanding.

SMU2007 wrote:Fan apathy is never going to improve until we start a) beating teams people care about and b) are nationally relevant and really until we are in a real conference.

Marshall is undefeated right now. No one cares. Conference affiliation is king.

If we are going to stay in a second tier of d1 football we might as well close up shop. Our only hope is somehow cracking the p5 and we have a LONG way to any prayer of that happening.

My thoughts completely. If we do not play historical regional rivalries, create fan interest and become competitive we are done. The past several years we have had the perfect schedule to become relevant; problem is that we were not ready despite at least 8 years advanced notice. We failed the test and now the entire future looks grim.

dcpony wrote:

1983 Cotton Bowl wrote:Time out. SMU today and Pacific (UOP) in 1995 are entirely different cases. I speak from some experience b/c I grew up in California, my dad was born and raised in Stockton (where UOP is located) and is a UOP graduate, and my grandfather was one of the founding patrons of the UOP school of pharmacy. I did not grow up in Stockton, but I did grow up around UOP and attended many UOP football games as a child. So while I am admittedly not an expert on football, I do recall some of the facts surrounding the termination of the program there. The article makes it sound like it came out of the blue and was some kind of shocker, but that is not really correct. Nor does UOP's experience in 1995 translate to SMU today.

Yes, UOP Tiger football did have some history and some prominent alumni. In fact, my dad, who attended in the early 1950s tells stories about games vs. Cal, Stanford, and other major schools where the Tigers would win. But by 1995 the program was running completely on fumes. In those last years, UOP was playing in the Big West and would travel around the country playing pay-for-play games against major programs just to try and make ends meet. I remember one game in particular towards the end where UOP played at Nebraska and lost something like 80-0. The financial situation of the athletic program had become simply untenable and something had to give. Even the pay-for-play beat downs didn't bring in nearly enough revenue. Perhaps more importantly, there were really no future prospects. UOP did not have the resources to build up the program ala TCU or schools like that. It was just a perpetual downward spiral and money black hole. So when the program was cancelled in 1995, I was not surprised at all. Nor was anyone in my family; it had become inevitable.

Yes, SMU football has fallen on hard times this year. But the program has access to resources and a conference affiliation that UOP would have killed for in 1995. I love UOP, but it is simply not the school SMU is. I think UOP's endowment is less than 1/3 the size of SMUs, and UOP does not have anywhere near the same number of big money alumni who can write massive checks to underwrite the program. SMU football sucks this year, but we've recently played in 4 bowl games and even beaten the occasional marginal BCS program in the past few years. UOP hadn't sniffed that kind of success for decades when they pulled the plug.

Finally, the biggest difference between SMU football today and UOP football in 1995 is that there is a path forward for SMU. Despite the problems this year, the right coach and the right staff has the potential to turn SMU around relatively quickly. We may not be playing in the Big-12, but the AAC is not all that bad and gives SMU national exposure. And it is possible that sustained success at SMU could result in an invitation to a bigger conference. Yes, SMU alumni and students need to step up and actually start supporting the program so that it can become self-sustaining and reach its goals, but unlike at UOP in 1995, that is actually possible at SMU despite our failings so far.

Bottom line. . .do not despair. This season is horrid no doubt. But SMU football today IS NOT UOP football in 1995.

^^THIS^^ A closer approximation to Pacific would be our friends at Rice. Even though it looks like they're going to have a wining or 500 season, they're up against a lot more than SMU is going forward.

Having lived in Sacramento in the early 90s I can say with confidence that there is no strong comparison between SMU today and UOP during that time. 83 makes many good points.

Additionally, it is worth noting is that Dallas isn't Stockton. In addition to the much much larger pool of local talent (if we choose to go after it), Dallas is a dynamic city with opportunities that will attract student athletes looking for life after the gridiron. It's an exciting city for athletes who want to live in an urban area.

Stockton declared bankruptcy in 2012 and the economic problems that led to the filing where clearly taking hold in the early 90s. I'm sure these economic problems made fundraising within the local business community more difficult in addition to limiting the appeal of the university to athletes wishing to relocate. Also, Stockton is basically a big agricultural community -- kind of like Fresno, only smaller.

Rice shares many of the same advantages as SMU.

max the wonder dog wrote:Additionally, it is worth noting is that Dallas isn't Stockton.

Truer words were never spoken.