Aresco Says AAC Will Expand

[GoStangs11]

Going to chime in as a UNT fan here because some of these comments are ridiculous. I have two family members who played at SMU who have nothing but respect for the program. They had always seen them as cross town rivals. Why are some of you so concerned about playing UNT in football once a year when you... already play UNT in football once a year? We have a more recent NCAA tournament win than SMU, and do well in Olympic sports. If this is solely an athletic comparison, SMU hasn't shown much in football aside from the last two years and is just as up and down as UNT has been since 2000. Consistent recruiting in DFW is tough given the competition and UNT and SMU both know this very well.

If this is some type of institutional or anti-commuter school bias, I can tell you that, while acknowledging SMU is a fine academic institution, SMU's reputation over UNT isn't as pronounced as some think. Let me illustrate: if the goal of a higher education these days is essentially job training and attainment, do you realistically believe a SMU candidate will be seen as head and shoulders better than a UNT candidate? There is of course some subjectivity there, but overall this isn't like comparing an Ivy League school to all of the rest. UNT is a massive state school with its own system and SMU is a small private in a big city. Both have pros and cons. UNT has a much larger alumni base in DFW (where presumably our overlapping job hunts are happening) at a fifth of the tuition cost. UNT is an R1 research institution (higher than SMU) and has been climbing in the rankings in recent years. I'll grant that SMU has better input metrics (SAT, GPA, etc.), but they are also filling less spots and can be more selective given their small private focus.

I'm taking a defensive posture here because everyone I talk to at UNT is thrilled to be in the same conference as SMU. Aside from a few snarky "snooty SMU fan" comments it's been nothing but positive. Our concern is that there is actually some headway from big SMU donors to block our entrance into the AAC. This isn't unprecedented, but I think SMU had a much better argument in the SWC days than it does now. Here's to hoping there's no truth to those rumors, and look forward to joining y'all.

Appreciate that perspective, but think of it from ours. We seek progress. In clawing our way back to relevance over the last 30 years, the first true glimmer of hope was the Hawaii bowl season under JJ in 2009/10. Then we slumped, now we are better positioned to take the next big step than at any other point. Getting lumped in with North Texas is admittedly not nearly as bad as Rice, Charlotte, or UAB, but I see this as 2 steps forward, 2 steps back. We are in an arguably worse version of C-USA than we were when JJ first showed up in 08.

Here's hoping that Houston insider is correct that SMU and Memphis will jump imminently.

And let's not kid ourselves about academics. SMU has far greater national and international reach than UNT. Not that USNews or Forbes are the end all be all but you're looking at a 200-school gap there. UNT is a fine institution but the two just are not comparable.

[MeanGreenChris]

Going to chime in as a UNT fan here because some of these comments are ridiculous. I have two family members who played at SMU who have nothing but respect for the program. They had always seen them as cross town rivals. Why are some of you so concerned about playing UNT in football once a year when you... already play UNT in football once a year? We have a more recent NCAA tournament win than SMU, and do well in Olympic sports. If this is solely an athletic comparison, SMU hasn't shown much in football aside from the last two years and is just as up and down as UNT has been since 2000. Consistent recruiting in DFW is tough given the competition and UNT and SMU both know this very well.

If this is some type of institutional or anti-commuter school bias, I can tell you that, while acknowledging SMU is a fine academic institution, SMU's reputation over UNT isn't as pronounced as some think. Let me illustrate: if the goal of a higher education these days is essentially job training and attainment, do you realistically believe a SMU candidate will be seen as head and shoulders better than a UNT candidate? There is of course some subjectivity there, but overall this isn't like comparing an Ivy League school to all of the rest. UNT is a massive state school with its own system and SMU is a small private in a big city. Both have pros and cons. UNT has a much larger alumni base in DFW (where presumably our overlapping job hunts are happening) at a fifth of the tuition cost. UNT is an R1 research institution (higher than SMU) and has been climbing in the rankings in recent years. I'll grant that SMU has better input metrics (SAT, GPA, etc.), but they are also filling less spots and can be more selective given their small private focus.

I'm taking a defensive posture here because everyone I talk to at UNT is thrilled to be in the same conference as SMU. Aside from a few snarky "snooty SMU fan" comments it's been nothing but positive. Our concern is that there is actually some headway from big SMU donors to block our entrance into the AAC. This isn't unprecedented, but I think SMU had a much better argument in the SWC days than it does now. Here's to hoping there's no truth to those rumors, and look forward to joining y'all.

Appreciate that perspective, but think of it from ours. We seek progress. In clawing our way back to relevance over the last 30 years, the first true glimmer of hope was the Hawaii bowl season under JJ in 2009/10. Then we slumped, now we are better positioned to take the next big step than at any other point. Getting lumped in with North Texas is admittedly not nearly as bad as Rice, Charlotte, or UAB, but I see this as 2 steps forward, 2 steps back. We are in an arguably worse version of C-USA than we were when JJ first showed up in 08.

Here's hoping that Houston insider is correct that SMU and Memphis will jump imminently.

And let's not kid ourselves about academics. SMU has far greater national and international reach than UNT. Not that USNews or Forbes are the end all be all but you're looking at a 200-school gap there. UNT is a fine institution but the two just are not comparable.

I get the disappointment on SMU's end but that isn't really a beef with UNT, that's just the normal reaction to being left behind. If you look at just about every metric, though, it shouldn't come as a surprise that they were. Same metrics, it shouldn't be a surprise that UNT is now moving up. We've invested immensely in our facilities and programs in general the last few years and it's paying dividends. SMU as a whole is kind of in a stagnation right now and has been for a while. Fan support is tough. Not to say I wouldn't want to be in that stagnation over what UNT has endured the last few years, but upside is always going to be on the side of the larger school (see UCF, Houston, Cinci).

On your comments on academics, I have to disagree that either SMU or UNT has much of any national or international reach. As a lawyer (humble brag), we usually differentiate between the top-14 law schools (where students get federal judge clerkships, big firm jobs, etc.) and the rest until basically the end of the top-60 or so. At the undergraduate level, I see the same thing with Ivy League and some other privates like Notre Dame and Rice who are close to it, and then maybe going to a huge state school with a massive alumni base, and the rest. When you're talking about basically middle management type positions you get with an undergrad, there isn't going to be a huge advantage there. I'm sure someone will point out some huge donor and use that as an example of where it matters, but UNT has some very rich folks too. I'm just talking averages here.

Now if my son had say a full ride to both UNT and SMU, first I'd say why didn't you get into Rice, but then I'd say sure go to SMU. The campus is prettier and it's nicer not having to contend with the institutional traffic jam that is 44k students. I'm just comparing value and tuition to tuition with what you get, and pointing out I don't think it's as big of a difference as some think, taking off the pony glasses.

[Bergermeister]

quote: I get the disappointment on SMU's end but that isn't really a beef with UNT

Yes, it is.

[redpony]

Does RGT really think people will be opening their wallets for a new $$ campaign when they see that we are now dramatically dropping in the quality of our conference and sports programs? Plus the academic side isn't rocketing up in the standings as well.

[numero_uno]

Pretty sure that the way we're viewing the addition of UNT to the AAC, is equally similar to how Baylor/TCU are viewing our desire to join the Big12.

We have no say in what happens (at least I know I don't, because I'm not a big money donor), so let it be what it is. Let our team win consistently, win championships in a watered down AAC. Maybe we get picked up by another conference in the next round of realignment...whenever that may be.

[MeanGreenChris]

quote: I get the disappointment on SMU's end but that isn't really a beef with UNT

Yes, it is.

Why? If we're talking historic relevance, the Ivy League schools and Army used to kick butt too. Stick to modern times. SMU has had a conference advantage and the series was back-and-forth (including some blow outs on y'alls end) in recent years up until a couple years ago. Being associated with schools that most of the nation views as your equals shouldn't be a disappointment. Rice was SWC, UAB was old CUSA, UNT has always been on your heels, and the rest have 5 times your enrollment. Numbers matter, and I think everyone picked the best choices this round of realignment. Luckily they look at data and not fan message boards.

[EPE]

quote: I get the disappointment on SMU's end but that isn't really a beef with UNT

Yes, it is.

When you don't complain about UTSA and then try and bash UNT you show how ridiculous you are and start looking like someone who is worried about what happens if UNT and SMU are in the same conference and the advantage you had might slip. Have you looked at their facilities and budgets? You start looking like someone who has always been able to buy their way out of issues. Does UNT need to keep investing and improving; yes. But SMU has not done so much to where they have set themselves apart or the Big 12 would have invited you already. You ended up with a great hire with Dykes, but before him, you were not relevant. You might still end up going to the Big 12 if they lose more teams a good for you.

[GoStangs11]

Going to chime in as a UNT fan here because some of these comments are ridiculous. I have two family members who played at SMU who have nothing but respect for the program. They had always seen them as cross town rivals. Why are some of you so concerned about playing UNT in football once a year when you... already play UNT in football once a year? We have a more recent NCAA tournament win than SMU, and do well in Olympic sports. If this is solely an athletic comparison, SMU hasn't shown much in football aside from the last two years and is just as up and down as UNT has been since 2000. Consistent recruiting in DFW is tough given the competition and UNT and SMU both know this very well.

If this is some type of institutional or anti-commuter school bias, I can tell you that, while acknowledging SMU is a fine academic institution, SMU's reputation over UNT isn't as pronounced as some think. Let me illustrate: if the goal of a higher education these days is essentially job training and attainment, do you realistically believe a SMU candidate will be seen as head and shoulders better than a UNT candidate? There is of course some subjectivity there, but overall this isn't like comparing an Ivy League school to all of the rest. UNT is a massive state school with its own system and SMU is a small private in a big city. Both have pros and cons. UNT has a much larger alumni base in DFW (where presumably our overlapping job hunts are happening) at a fifth of the tuition cost. UNT is an R1 research institution (higher than SMU) and has been climbing in the rankings in recent years. I'll grant that SMU has better input metrics (SAT, GPA, etc.), but they are also filling less spots and can be more selective given their small private focus.

I'm taking a defensive posture here because everyone I talk to at UNT is thrilled to be in the same conference as SMU. Aside from a few snarky "snooty SMU fan" comments it's been nothing but positive. Our concern is that there is actually some headway from big SMU donors to block our entrance into the AAC. This isn't unprecedented, but I think SMU had a much better argument in the SWC days than it does now. Here's to hoping there's no truth to those rumors, and look forward to joining y'all.

Appreciate that perspective, but think of it from ours. We seek progress. In clawing our way back to relevance over the last 30 years, the first true glimmer of hope was the Hawaii bowl season under JJ in 2009/10. Then we slumped, now we are better positioned to take the next big step than at any other point. Getting lumped in with North Texas is admittedly not nearly as bad as Rice, Charlotte, or UAB, but I see this as 2 steps forward, 2 steps back. We are in an arguably worse version of C-USA than we were when JJ first showed up in 08.

Here's hoping that Houston insider is correct that SMU and Memphis will jump imminently.

And let's not kid ourselves about academics. SMU has far greater national and international reach than UNT. Not that USNews or Forbes are the end all be all but you're looking at a 200-school gap there. UNT is a fine institution but the two just are not comparable.

I get the disappointment on SMU's end but that isn't really a beef with UNT, that's just the normal reaction to being left behind. If you look at just about every metric, though, it shouldn't come as a surprise that they were. Same metrics, it shouldn't be a surprise that UNT is now moving up. We've invested immensely in our facilities and programs in general the last few years and it's paying dividends. SMU as a whole is kind of in a stagnation right now and has been for a while. Fan support is tough. Not to say I wouldn't want to be in that stagnation over what UNT has endured the last few years, but upside is always going to be on the side of the larger school (see UCF, Houston, Cinci).

On your comments on academics, I have to disagree that either SMU or UNT has much of any national or international reach. As a lawyer (humble brag), we usually differentiate between the top-14 law schools (where students get federal judge clerkships, big firm jobs, etc.) and the rest until basically the end of the top-60 or so. At the undergraduate level, I see the same thing with Ivy League and some other privates like Notre Dame and Rice who are close to it, and then maybe going to a huge state school with a massive alumni base, and the rest. When you're talking about basically middle management type positions you get with an undergrad, there isn't going to be a huge advantage there. I'm sure someone will point out some huge donor and use that as an example of where it matters, but UNT has some very rich folks too. I'm just talking averages here.

Now if my son had say a full ride to both UNT and SMU, first I'd say why didn't you get into Rice, but then I'd say sure go to SMU. The campus is prettier and it's nicer not having to contend with the institutional traffic jam that is 44k students. I'm just comparing value and tuition to tuition with what you get, and pointing out I don't think it's as big of a difference as some think, taking off the pony glasses.

SMU has strong alumni networks in every major American city and several international cities. People come to SMU from all over, and the alumni live all over. Cant say the same about UNT but I will give you a comparable network size and scope in DFW and maybe throughout Texas. No point in comparing either school to ivies, though our colors are harvard red and yale blue!

As I said, this doesnt sting as much with UNT joining given your storied program and strong support base. Rice? UAB? Come on. You are wrong that SMU is stagnant. We have increased student attendance and alumni program engagement, new facilities, improved recruiting, and AAC was a step up from C-USA. Three straight 6-0 starts. #15 in AP in 2019 and #16 last year. This is wild improvement for us and the new conference alignment will slow and could perhaps reverse that trajectory. Makes total sense that UNT is pleased with this, and I am surprised by your surprise that we are not.

[MeanGreenChris]

SMU has strong alumni networks in every major American city and several international cities. People come to SMU from all over, and the alumni live all over. Cant say the same about UNT but I will give you a comparable network size and scope in DFW and maybe throughout Texas. No point in comparing either school to ivies, though our colors are harvard red and yale blue!

As I said, this doesnt sting as much with UNT joining given your storied program and strong support base. Rice? UAB? Come on. You are wrong that SMU is stagnant. We have increased student attendance and alumni program engagement, new facilities, improved recruiting, and AAC was a step up from C-USA. Three straight 6-0 starts. #15 in AP in 2019 and #16 last year. This is wild improvement for us and the new conference alignment will slow and could perhaps reverse that trajectory.

TCU says that too but a lot of that is California out-of-staters who end up staying in DFW or Texas after they graduate. That's when the alumni base comes into play. I'll give you that in the business program it may be more important, but again, you're probably still looking at a MBA these days and your MBA school is more important.

SMU, like UNT, needs to prove it can perform consistently. We never reached your success, but we did recently have two 9-win seasons in a row. Neither program has been able to sustain it.

Rice is academically elite and UAB is the only show in town in a pretty big town. I have no problem with any of the additions, and I did have problems with some of who we came with to the CUSA.

[SMU_Alum11]

Basically in summary from the NTCC side and fully agree:

1) this benefits NTCC
2) this hurts SMU

That sums it up and why you are seeing the reaction and why I hope that big money donors put it towards blocking this part of the expansion.

Side note: we play you OOC for the easy win to get things going before TCU. Arguably this arrangement should it go through means our OOC needs to be only P5 since how weak it has become.

Lastly: I'm good with UTSA, UAB and Rice (strictly to replace a SWC foe albeit an easier one).

[MeanGreenChris]

Basically in summary from the NTCC side and fully agree:

1) this benefits NTCC
2) this hurts SMU

That sums it up and why you are seeing the reaction and why I hope that big money donors put it towards blocking this part of the expansion.

Side note: we play you OOC for the easy win to get things going before TCU. Arguably this arrangement should it go through means our OOC needs to be only P5 since how weak it has become.

Lastly: I'm good with UTSA, UAB and Rice (strictly to replace a SWC foe albeit an easier one).

I just disagree with 2. If SMU does well it shouldn't have a problem making the expanded playoffs.

[SMU_Alum11]

Basically in summary from the NTCC side and fully agree:

1) this benefits NTCC
2) this hurts SMU

That sums it up and why you are seeing the reaction and why I hope that big money donors put it towards blocking this part of the expansion.

Side note: we play you OOC for the easy win to get things going before TCU. Arguably this arrangement should it go through means our OOC needs to be only P5 since how weak it has become.

Lastly: I'm good with UTSA, UAB and Rice (strictly to replace a SWC foe albeit an easier one).

I just disagree with 2. If SMU does well it shouldn't have a problem making the expanded playoffs.

Well then I leave you with this, it took UTSA to get to 7-0 just to break the Top 25. UTEP is 6-1 with no votes.

In 2019 I believe, we lost twice and we were still in the Top 25.

That won't happen again for sure with this merger unless our OOC is pure Top 25 P5 opponents. Sorry poi t #2 is true whether we like it or not hence the reaction.

[Mustangs_Maroons]

getting UTSA and UNT on the same conference is not just bad for SMU but it's bad for the rest of the American. Those schools are poor academic schools, and they don't have the benefit that even a UCF adds to Florida. It's just taking multiple steps back.

I don't think that's the case with Rice. I would love for Rice to be in our conference moving forward, because they can add a lot of value, not just academically.

If those schools join the conference, I'd much rather join whatever is left of the mountain west or become independent.

And to the person that compares UNT to SMU academically, sure, SMU isn't Rice, but we're as hell of a lot closer to Rice than UNT is to SMU, and it's not even close.

[SMU_Alum11]

getting UTSA and UNT on the same conference is not just bad for SMU but it's bad for the rest of the American. Those schools are poor academic schools, and they don't have the benefit that even a UCF adds to Florida. It's just taking multiple steps back.

I don't think that's the case with Rice. I would love for Rice to be in our conference moving forward, because they can add a lot of value, not just academically.

If those schools join the conference, I'd much rather join whatever is left of the mountain west or become independent.

And to the person that compares UNT to SMU academically, sure, SMU isn't Rice, but we're as hell of a lot closer to Rice than UNT is to SMU, and it's not even close.

Agreed. Independent would be nice but coordination would suck especially trying to get home games and TV contract.

Education rankings

#68 SMU (need to work on that RGT)
#277 NTCC

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

[MeanGreenChris]

getting UTSA and UNT on the same conference is not just bad for SMU but it's bad for the rest of the American. Those schools are poor academic schools, and they don't have the benefit that even a UCF adds to Florida. It's just taking multiple steps back.

I don't think that's the case with Rice. I would love for Rice to be in our conference moving forward, because they can add a lot of value, not just academically.

If those schools join the conference, I'd much rather join whatever is left of the mountain west or become independent.

And to the person that compares UNT to SMU academically, sure, SMU isn't Rice, but we're as hell of a lot closer to Rice than UNT is to SMU, and it's not even close.

I disagree. There's a lot of benchmarks, but SMU isn't AAU or R1. These are two traditional metrics for institutional prestige. USNWR looks at a lot more stuff that's maybe more important to students, like average GPA, SAT, average income after graduation, etc. These can easily be explained by size difference and selectivity. I won't belabor the point anymore, but I'm not convinced SMU is as high on the ladder as some on here think.

As for the other programs entering the AAC, the conference has always been urban metropolitan schools, either large publics or smaller privates closer to the city centers. It stays that way with expansion. How did everyone feel about UCF a few years ago? I know they are massive, but the same logic was used here with the expansion. I think this should be seen as staying the same and not moving up. Being disappointed in not moving up is fine, but claiming these schools somehow defile the conference is disingenuous.