DMN: SMU recruit loses appeal on letter of intent

[George S. Patton]

Does anyone think this may deter future on-the-fence recruits from committing/signing?

No

It won't hurt on the fence recruits, but it will hurt recruiting So-Cal in general, and possibly have some AAU ramifications

I'm sorry, PonyDoh. I'm not with you on this. Why do you think the NLI denied his letter? If the best we can get on the record from anyone from the Dubois family is "personal reasons", then that leads to more questions than anything else. And more suspicions.

Unless you can't move because of a death in the family where you have to be a $$ provider or the coach you signed with left, those would be the major reasons to grant the release. Nothing suggests the former has occurred. Obviously, the latter hasn't happened.

And whatever the personal reasons the NLI got must have been so flimsy, it agreed with SMU.

You have freshmen who think their stuff doesn't stink and want immediately playing time. Thus, they are babied and then immediately threatened if others like McCoy and the other kid are brought into the mix.

Even if we told Dubois that we weren't recruiting another PG, that kid should have been smart enough to figure out that Doherty's first job is to put the best team on the floor. Show me a coach who has never lied to a kid, and I'll show you a kid who has never lied to a coach.

Was another school "recruiting" Dubois? Always a chance of that.

Now, look what it's cost him? A lot. Hope he's happy with what's happened.

I'm not suggesting that we're totally blameless in this. However, I am suggesting that when matters like this, a good number of folks automatically like to get into "blame SMU" mode. I'm insulted by that attitude.

I don't think the tentacles of alleged damage in that part of the country and AAU stretch as far as you believe. Every recruiting case with every kid is different with each school he is talking with. It's up to him to decide where he wants to go -- Not his AAU coach or his father. However, those two elements can be more destructive in this process than instructive.

Jared Dubois signed a letter and needed to live up the obligations of it. But given what has happened, he just learned a lesson about life -- THE HARD WAY!!

Now, he has to live with it.

There is nothing to gain by keeping the kid locked in. His reasons for wanting out aren't important, just that he wants out. The NCAA and NLI board are rigid, anti-athlete, institutions. Their judgements are predictable and expected.

When a kids lead recruiter leaves, the procuring cause of the verbal, you let the kid go. When you recruit over the kid and he's not happy, you let him go. Again, no reason to lock him in.

Currently, this is about hurting the kid, unless there was tampering from a league school. Maybe that's the case, but this is petty. A NLI isn't a commitment to the military, or about honor. It's just a business arrangement and when the business goes bad, you part ways amicably.

Sorry, I disagree.

[mrydel]

My thought is that perhaps we said ok but limited where he could go ( no CUSA), and they say no they want a full release. IF that were the case I would stand pat. If he would accept a release excluding CUSA schools I think I would let him go. But then again, I do not get paid to make these decisions and Doherty does. For that reason I have to believe there is something solid behind his decision.

[PonyDoh]

Does anyone think this may deter future on-the-fence recruits from committing/signing?

No

It won't hurt on the fence recruits, but it will hurt recruiting So-Cal in general, and possibly have some AAU ramifications

I'm sorry, PonyDoh. I'm not with you on this. Why do you think the NLI denied his letter? If the best we can get on the record from anyone from the Dubois family is "personal reasons", then that leads to more questions than anything else. And more suspicions.

Unless you can't move because of a death in the family where you have to be a $$ provider or the coach you signed with left, those would be the major reasons to grant the release. Nothing suggests the former has occurred. Obviously, the latter hasn't happened.

And whatever the personal reasons the NLI got must have been so flimsy, it agreed with SMU.

You have freshmen who think their stuff doesn't stink and want immediately playing time. Thus, they are babied and then immediately threatened if others like McCoy and the other kid are brought into the mix.

Even if we told Dubois that we weren't recruiting another PG, that kid should have been smart enough to figure out that Doherty's first job is to put the best team on the floor. Show me a coach who has never lied to a kid, and I'll show you a kid who has never lied to a coach.

Was another school "recruiting" Dubois? Always a chance of that.

Now, look what it's cost him? A lot. Hope he's happy with what's happened.

I'm not suggesting that we're totally blameless in this. However, I am suggesting that when matters like this, a good number of folks automatically like to get into "blame SMU" mode. I'm insulted by that attitude.

I don't think the tentacles of alleged damage in that part of the country and AAU stretch as far as you believe. Every recruiting case with every kid is different with each school he is talking with. It's up to him to decide where he wants to go -- Not his AAU coach or his father. However, those two elements can be more destructive in this process than instructive.

Jared Dubois signed a letter and needed to live up the obligations of it. But given what has happened, he just learned a lesson about life -- THE HARD WAY!!

Now, he has to live with it.

There is nothing to gain by keeping the kid locked in. His reasons for wanting out aren't important, just that he wants out. The NCAA and NLI board are rigid, anti-athlete, institutions. Their judgements are predictable and expected.

When a kids lead recruiter leaves, the procuring cause of the verbal, you let the kid go. When you recruit over the kid and he's not happy, you let him go. Again, no reason to lock him in.

Currently, this is about hurting the kid, unless there was tampering from a league school. Maybe that's the case, but this is petty. A NLI isn't a commitment to the military, or about honor. It's just a business arrangement and when the business goes bad, you part ways amicably.

Sorry, I disagree.

If you've ever made a dime in the basketball industry, there is nothing to disagree with. Your hard line stance has repercussions on the trail and will be used against us, unless there are extenuating circumstances. You don't just act hard to act hard, but of course, your screen name is Patton.

[George S. Patton]

Does anyone think this may deter future on-the-fence recruits from committing/signing?

No

It won't hurt on the fence recruits, but it will hurt recruiting So-Cal in general, and possibly have some AAU ramifications

I'm sorry, PonyDoh. I'm not with you on this. Why do you think the NLI denied his letter? If the best we can get on the record from anyone from the Dubois family is "personal reasons", then that leads to more questions than anything else. And more suspicions.

Unless you can't move because of a death in the family where you have to be a $$ provider or the coach you signed with left, those would be the major reasons to grant the release. Nothing suggests the former has occurred. Obviously, the latter hasn't happened.

And whatever the personal reasons the NLI got must have been so flimsy, it agreed with SMU.

You have freshmen who think their stuff doesn't stink and want immediately playing time. Thus, they are babied and then immediately threatened if others like McCoy and the other kid are brought into the mix.

Even if we told Dubois that we weren't recruiting another PG, that kid should have been smart enough to figure out that Doherty's first job is to put the best team on the floor. Show me a coach who has never lied to a kid, and I'll show you a kid who has never lied to a coach.

Was another school "recruiting" Dubois? Always a chance of that.

Now, look what it's cost him? A lot. Hope he's happy with what's happened.

I'm not suggesting that we're totally blameless in this. However, I am suggesting that when matters like this, a good number of folks automatically like to get into "blame SMU" mode. I'm insulted by that attitude.

I don't think the tentacles of alleged damage in that part of the country and AAU stretch as far as you believe. Every recruiting case with every kid is different with each school he is talking with. It's up to him to decide where he wants to go -- Not his AAU coach or his father. However, those two elements can be more destructive in this process than instructive.

Jared Dubois signed a letter and needed to live up the obligations of it. But given what has happened, he just learned a lesson about life -- THE HARD WAY!!

Now, he has to live with it.

There is nothing to gain by keeping the kid locked in. His reasons for wanting out aren't important, just that he wants out. The NCAA and NLI board are rigid, anti-athlete, institutions. Their judgements are predictable and expected.

When a kids lead recruiter leaves, the procuring cause of the verbal, you let the kid go. When you recruit over the kid and he's not happy, you let him go. Again, no reason to lock him in.

Currently, this is about hurting the kid, unless there was tampering from a league school. Maybe that's the case, but this is petty. A NLI isn't a commitment to the military, or about honor. It's just a business arrangement and when the business goes bad, you part ways amicably.

Sorry, I disagree.

If you've ever made a dime in the basketball industry, there is nothing to disagree with. Your hard line stance has repercussions on the trail and will be used against us, unless there are extenuating circumstances. You don't just act hard to act hard, but of course, your screen name is Patton.

Well, then I guess there's Jared Dubois' version, which he will claim is the truth. And then there's the truth.

What is this with the Blame SMU mentality? I think you are leaning more toward the kid than us. If he didn't come forward with this about why he wanted out, then you're right I'm digging my heels in this. When do we stop being babysitters and start holding people accountable?

[RGV Pony]

I'm wondering if there's any possibility DuBois might be wanting to follow Irvin to Southern Illinois. One could argue it's a better program than SMU, and a better top to bottom conference. The one non-vague comment Dad has made has been about the fact that Irvin is gone. I could see Doh being peeved to the point he'd put his foot down if Irvin recruited the kid, then left for SIU, and now DuBois wants to go play there.

[Pony Ride]

If we are going to let him out of his NLI, then why should we ask any recruit to sign a NLI?

[PonyDoh]

I'm going to give you guys a real life example of the potential repercussions. When I was living Vegas, I was part of the start up of a successful AAU program. Another investor, now has his name on the the fastest rising prep school program in America. Now, that AAU team is a 2nd tier flagship & the prep school #2 in the nation. The AAU team received its flagship status by feeding a legendary So-Cal organization

Suffice it to say, both the organizations have certain reservations about Doh, but were willing to overlook the past. The So-Cal flagship is upset about Doh's current treatment of Dubois etc. They put word out to their Las Vegas sister program, which currently has the highest ranked kid on SMUs radar. Meanwhile, that AAU program is friendly w/the best prep program on the West Coast. A program w/no less then 10 D1 recruits on the roster, several of which SMU has showed interest in.

The term 'iced' was invented for situations like this. Treat their kids badly, lose access to their kids. Colleges & coaches are end game, but expendable. Ultimately, they need relationships more then AAUs and preps. Its no different then what has happened at Maryland. Gary Williams doesn't play the game, so the local flagships are starving him. Gary made the mistake of thinking the local state school, in the ACC, was bigger then these programs. Now the program can't recruit locally and dying on the vine, all due to lack of talent

[George S. Patton]

I'm going to give you guys a real life example of the potential repercussions. When I was living Vegas, I was part of the start up of a successful AAU program. Another investor, now has his name on the the fastest rising prep school program in America. Now, that AAU team is a 2nd tier flagship & the prep school #2 in the nation. The AAU team received its flagship status by feeding a legendary So-Cal organization

Suffice it to say, both the organizations have certain reservations about Doh, but were willing to overlook the past. The So-Cal flagship is upset about Doh's current treatment of Dubois etc. They put word out to their Las Vegas sister program, which currently has the highest ranked kid on SMUs radar. Meanwhile, that AAU program is friendly w/the best prep program on the West Coast. A program w/no less then 10 D1 recruits on the roster, several of which SMU has showed interest in.

The term 'iced' was invented for situations like this. Treat their kids badly, lose access to their kids. Colleges & coaches are end game, but expendable. Ultimately, they need relationships more then AAUs and preps. Its no different then what has happened at Maryland. Gary Williams doesn't play the game, so the local flagships are starving him. Gary made the mistake of thinking the local state school, in the ACC, was bigger then these programs. Now the program can't recruit locally and dying on the vine, all due to lack of talent

Say what you want about the NCAA and NLI organizations, but the biggest hindrance to college basketball is the AAU network. Their power has become too widespread and too overbearing. Kids are influincing the rise and fall of basketball programs not the coaches. You said that the NCAA and NLI are against kids. The AAU is against coaches. Period. Is that a healthy relationship?

Based on how you've phrased this, did the Las Vegas or Southern California people ever get the coaches' side of this or was this just believe Jared and to hell with our side?

It is time to end or limit the effectiveness/influence of the AAU programs. I don't know how, but it needs to happen.

[mathman]

The term 'iced' was invented for situations like this. Treat their kids badly, lose access to their kids. Colleges & coaches are end game, but expendable. Ultimately, they need relationships more then AAUs and preps. Its no different then what has happened at Maryland. Gary Williams doesn't play the game, so the local flagships are starving him. Gary made the mistake of thinking the local state school, in the ACC, was bigger then these programs. Now the program can't recruit locally and dying on the vine, all due to lack of talent

This is a quote in the thread just above this one. I am having trouble reconciling the two. http://www.ponyfans.com/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 7c42fb8407

Maryland seemed a logical venue for one of Vaccaro's pep talks. He's an old pal of Maryland's basketball coach, Gary Williams, and the school's team--which won the ncaa championship in 2002--is stocked with the sort of elite players whom Vaccaro makes it his business to have befriended before they even have drivers' licenses.

[CalallenStang]

PonyDoh, have you ever been on the other side of the fence...working in a NCAA program? The problem with the AAU/Prep School system is that too many of the people involved have no ability to see things from the perspective of a university / coaching staff.

[EastStang]

There is no doubt that AAU programs are quasi-professional institutions that package their players to college programs and to get the players you do need their love. On the other hand, if you wussy out to every demand made by every 18 year old, then why have NLI's? Just say, we hope to see you in September, and you'll also get a rep of a school that you can sign with as a safety valve until something better comes along. DuBose was offered a scholarship and accepted it. His receiving a scholarship cost SMU the right to offer another recruit who might have made a difference, we don't know and Doh won't say. Who knows? Perhaps it was another LA or LV kid who lost out on a scholarship and went elsewhere because Doh honored his offer to DuBose. There are two sides to every story, and Doh is the coach who has his head on the chopping block if he makes the wrong choices. His is the only judgment on this that matters and if that judgment ends up with losing season after losing season and losing players, then he won't stay very long. He's been at this game long enough to know the lay of the land.

[Scoops]

I'm wondering if there's any possibility DuBois might be wanting to follow Irvin to Southern Illinois. One could argue it's a better program than SMU, and a better top to bottom conference. The one non-vague comment Dad has made has been about the fact that Irvin is gone. I could see Doh being peeved to the point he'd put his foot down if Irvin recruited the kid, then left for SIU, and now DuBois wants to go play there.

I don't know that DuBois wants to go to SIU, but yes, he was recruited by Coach Irvin and they reportedly had a good relationship with him.

[DickerJames]

The So-Cal flagship is upset about Doh's current treatment of Dubois etc.

Upset at Doh's treatment? Please tell me why you think he has treated this kid poorly. The kid and daddy refuse to even meet with Doh to discuss the situation so I think Doh is the one that is being treated poorly.

[PonyDoh]

The So-Cal flagship is upset about Doh's current treatment of Dubois etc.

Upset at Doh's treatment? Please tell me why you think he has treated this kid poorly. The kid and daddy refuse to even meet with Doh to discuss the situation so I think Doh is the one that is being treated poorly.

There is nothing to say. The family was told their kid would be the only kid recruited in 08 at PG. The staff went on to recruit two more. They feel lied to and can't trust the head man. Damage done, relationship ruined.

Personally, I'm glad we recruited a slew of PGs, and to be honest, I think Dubois is a combo not a PG. Either way, I understand why they don't want to meet w/Doh. They feel like he's already burned the bridge

[PonyDoh]

The term 'iced' was invented for situations like this. Treat their kids badly, lose access to their kids. Colleges & coaches are end game, but expendable. Ultimately, they need relationships more then AAUs and preps. Its no different then what has happened at Maryland. Gary Williams doesn't play the game, so the local flagships are starving him. Gary made the mistake of thinking the local state school, in the ACC, was bigger then these programs. Now the program can't recruit locally and dying on the vine, all due to lack of talent

This is a quote in the thread just above this one. I am having trouble reconciling the two. http://www.ponyfans.com/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 7c42fb8407

Maryland seemed a logical venue for one of Vaccaro's pep talks. He's an old pal of Maryland's basketball coach, Gary Williams, and the school's team--which won the ncaa championship in 2002--is stocked with the sort of elite players whom Vaccaro makes it his business to have befriended before they even have drivers' licenses.

That quote couldn't be more wrong. Check Maryland's roster, not a single McD AA on it. Even the national championship team didn't have a McD AA, the first ever, I might add. Vaccaro has never steered a kid to Maryland and DC's biggest flagship, DC Assault, an Adidas AAU, has never sent a kid to the Terps. Team Melo, a Nike flagship out of Baltimore, has sent one kid to Maryland, and thats only b/c his Dad was a lifelong Terp fan. Melo is obviously Big East friendly, see Cuse & Uconn