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gord wrote:BCS teams Hawai'i beat from 2003-07:

Alabama
Northwestern
Michigan State
Arizona State
Purdue
Boise State
Washington

If this offense is so outdated, please explain how it differs from other 4-wideout offenses that successful teams, like Oklahoma State, West Virginia and Baylor, use.

I don't know if the offense is outdated but we just beat BCS Pitt. Was that impressive?

Our offensive stats have been similar to non-Brennan Hawaii. It is just the competition can score more. The Brennan years are an exception but isn't that when Mouse Davis came to Hawaii for a while?

and I think you really have to have a QB that actually stays for 4 years in the system to be effective. We haven't come close to that.

couch 'em wrote:

gord wrote:BCS teams Hawai'i beat from 2003-07:

Alabama
Northwestern
Michigan State
Arizona State
Purdue
Boise State
Washington

If this offense is so outdated, please explain how it differs from other 4-wideout offenses that successful teams, like Oklahoma State, West Virginia and Baylor, use.

I don't know if the offense is outdated but we just beat BCS Pitt. Was that impressive?

Our offensive stats have been similar to non-Brennan Hawaii. It is just the competition can score more. The Brennan years are an exception but isn't that when Mouse Davis came to Hawaii for a while?

Can we really include Pitt, we beat a team that wanted to be beaten. They got back stabbed by their coach, they thought they deserved a better bowl. I think given the circumstances we should just write that win off as a successful win for the RnS. Wash st shouldn't count either because they suck.

BCS teams Hawai'i beat from 2003-07:<br /><br />Alabama<br />Northwestern<br />Michigan State<br />Arizona State<br />Purdue<br />Boise State<br />Washington<br /><br />If this offense is so outdated, please explain how it differs from other 4-wideout offenses that successful teams, like Oklahoma State, West Virginia and Baylor, use.

Those teams use similar principals but they have EVOLVED

gord wrote:BCS teams Hawai'i beat from 2003-07:

Alabama
Northwestern
Michigan State
Arizona State
Purdue
Boise State
Washington

If this offense is so outdated, please explain how it differs from other 4-wideout offenses that successful teams, like Oklahoma State, West Virginia and Baylor, use.

Let's see:
'03 Alabama - team gave up avg of 25.6 pts and 360.2 yards per game that year (game played at Home)
'04 Northwestern - 28.5/390.9 (game played at Home)
'04 MSU - 27.2/381.4 (game played at Home)
'06 ASU - 23.8/298.6 (Hawaii Bowl, so ... Home)
'06 Purdue - 26.9/432.7 (game played at Home)
'07 BSU - 20/326.5 (game played at home)
'07 Washington - 31.6/421.1 (game played at Home)

Also lost to Alabama, MSU, and BSU (three times) when playing on the mainland.

Is it safe to say that Hawai'i's success against BCS teams plus Boise in these years was due to playing mostly sub-par defenses on an island in the middle of nowhere?

I think yes.

SMU_Alumni11 wrote:

couch 'em wrote:

gord wrote:BCS teams Hawai'i beat from 2003-07:

Alabama
Northwestern
Michigan State
Arizona State
Purdue
Boise State
Washington

If this offense is so outdated, please explain how it differs from other 4-wideout offenses that successful teams, like Oklahoma State, West Virginia and Baylor, use.

I don't know if the offense is outdated but we just beat BCS Pitt. Was that impressive?

Our offensive stats have been similar to non-Brennan Hawaii. It is just the competition can score more. The Brennan years are an exception but isn't that when Mouse Davis came to Hawaii for a while?

Can we really include Pitt, we beat a team that wanted to be beaten. They got back stabbed by their coach, they thought they deserved a better bowl. I think given the circumstances we should just write that win off as a successful win for the RnS. Wash st should count either because they suck.

That's my point - as someone showed below that are extenuating circumstances

Did I miss something?

The Run n' Shoot offence is dependent upon a quality quarterback and talented receivers. I dunno if we've seen a lot of evidence of that.
Couldn't help but notice what a great young receiver Gabriel Marks is at Washington State - he de-committed after he learned that June Jones was leaving for Arizona State.

The other issue is that every defense now is built to stop 4/5 wideout sets. The teams that have the ability to run like Bama and Stanford also have solid defenses that can stop any offense. We are not a gimmick anymore. We are what everyone else runs without the running QB. The run and shoot was built to exploit 4/3 defenses designed to stop the run. Most teams run 3-4, 3-3-5 or 4-2-5 defenses with quick coverage backers and an extra corner.

I copied this from the YouTube comments section:

Air Raid, is different then a pure Run & Shoot. Run & Shoot is totally committed to 4 and 5 WRs all of the time, and lots of trip and quad sets. There arent a lot of formations..but every pass play has infinite option route variations.
Air Raid, and most spread offenses have scripted routes..in a pure Run & Shoot, the QB and the WRs need to read the D together, and in sync.
There are no predetermined routes.

gord wrote:BCS teams Hawai'i beat from 2003-07:

Alabama
Northwestern
Michigan State
Arizona State
Purdue
Boise State
Washington

If this offense is so outdated, please explain how it differs from other 4-wideout offenses that successful teams, like Oklahoma State, West Virginia and Baylor, use.

Not an impressive list of conquests
Alabama: 4-9
Northwestern: 6-6
Michigan State: 5-7
Arizona State: 7-6
Purdue: 8-6
Boise State: 10-3
Washington: 4-9

Do we really need three pages to debate whether this offense is lame, tired and boring (and losing more than winning)?

sbsmith wrote:

gord wrote:BCS teams Hawai'i beat from 2003-07:

Alabama
Northwestern
Michigan State
Arizona State
Purdue
Boise State
Washington

If this offense is so outdated, please explain how it differs from other 4-wideout offenses that successful teams, like Oklahoma State, West Virginia and Baylor, use.

Not an impressive list of conquests
Alabama: 4-9
Northwestern: 6-6
Michigan State: 5-7
Arizona State: 7-6
Purdue: 8-6
Boise State: 10-3
Washington: 4-9

So if we beat all of those teams over a four-year period, would you find a way to say that it's not big deal? Exactly how many BCS teams have we beaten in the last 15 years?

RGV Pony wrote:

BCS teams Hawai'i beat from 2003-07:<br /><br />Alabama<br />Northwestern<br />Michigan State<br />Arizona State<br />Purdue<br />Boise State<br />Washington<br /><br />If this offense is so outdated, please explain how it differs from other 4-wideout offenses that successful teams, like Oklahoma State, West Virginia and Baylor, use.

Those teams use similar principals but they have EVOLVED

Evolved how? I assume you study these offenses and can give me multiple examples.

And if you think Jones hasn't evolved his offense, you should compare what he's doing now from Atlanta's offense in the mid-90s. There isn't much of a resemblance between the two. And considering Hawai'i didn't have a 1,000-yard rusher the entire time he was there, and has had one in each of the last three (best of my recollection off the top of my head), there has been an evolution. Otherwise Zach Line isn't coming close to breaking ED's records.

I'm not saying that what we're seeing is the cutting edge of offense in today's age, but it's not the reason we're losing. If we started running the same plays that Baylor or OK State runs, there wouldn't be that much of a difference. We simply don't have the players that those two schools have and it's not even close. Baylor had a Heisman QB last year and OK State's was a 1st round draft pick. At least Brennan and Chang spent some time with NFL teams -- that's not happening with Mitchell, Padron, McDermott or Gilbert. If you want to blame someone, blame Jones for a significant talent dropoff in the last few seasons. That I will agree with.

gord wrote:

sbsmith wrote:

gord wrote:BCS teams Hawai'i beat from 2003-07:

Alabama
Northwestern
Michigan State
Arizona State
Purdue
Boise State
Washington

If this offense is so outdated, please explain how it differs from other 4-wideout offenses that successful teams, like Oklahoma State, West Virginia and Baylor, use.

Not an impressive list of conquests
Alabama: 4-9
Northwestern: 6-6
Michigan State: 5-7
Arizona State: 7-6
Purdue: 8-6
Boise State: 10-3
Washington: 4-9

So if we beat all of those teams over a four-year period, would you find a way to say that it's not big deal? Exactly how many BCS teams have we beaten in the last 15 years?

Depends on what our final record ends up being, who cares about beating some mediocre or terrible BCS teams during a 5 loss season. No one was throwing a damn parade when we beat Wazzu in 2010 because they were [deleted] awful and we were expected to beat them.