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A 12-0 Hawaii team lost to Georgia 41-10 in the 2008 Sugar Bowl. I think everyone would agree that was JJ's best team while at Hawaii. The Rainbows went into the game ranked number ten in the country and the score did not really reflect how lopsided the game was.

lwjr wrote:A 12-0 Hawaii team lost to Georgia 41-10 in the 2008 Sugar Bowl. I think everyone would agree that was JJ's best team while at Hawaii. The Rainbows went into the game ranked number ten in the country and the score did not really reflect how lopsided the game was.

What are you saying? That if they ran a different offense with those same exact players, Hawai'i would have made it a lot closer? Won?

Since you played in the offense, maybe you can shed some light on why you think this offense can't beat good BCS schools and what makes it so different from other 4-wideout offenses that other schools, like Oklahoma State, West Virginia, Oklahoma and Mike Leach use.

This was June's best team and it was a pretty good team but they could not stay with Georgia. In my opinion it is a fun but gimmick offense. For a team that does not have a lot of talent it works to a certain degree.
OSU and Tech have a little problem with Defense. OU runs a variation of the R&S but still balance it out with two back sets when they want to or need to and they play defense. I have not seen West Virginia play very much so I do not know what they do but if you say they run the R&S I will take your word on that until proven otherwise.

Outside Hawaii Bowl, 1st half 2011 TCU and the Compass Bowl, this offense has been anything but fun to watch.

gord

My original point was in regards to the level of athletes we had under Rossley and would have under Jones, after his hire and the fact the R&S shoot only getting us so far. As well, most of the BCS teams Hawaii beat were not ranked having down years and most were games in Hawaii, where historically teams struggle even before JJ.

Without getting in to much detail this offense is much more complicated then most, including he spread. Requires everyone from QB, RB and WR to read the defense pre-snap and then again on the snap of the ball. Very hard thing to do in the heat of battle. If one part of the three read incorrectly most of the time the play will break down. Throw in experienced O line and it it can get ugly. It's magnified 10 times win you play against superior defenses and athletes that makes the throwing lanes even smaller even if you make the correct read and throw. For example they break faster on the ball and less RAC, which this offense depends on. Look at Hawaii vs Georgia, SMU vst ATM, etc.

Oklahoma does run some 4 wide is more of a pro style and some spread with an emphasis on a tailback.
The others you mentioned and Leach's offense are all variations of the spread which is why it's not called the run and shoot. Just different and I'm to busy to explain. Google it. There's a reason why Dez Bryant had success at Okie State, less reads etc., I'll leave it at that.
As much as I admire Leach and that offense most would agree his offense can't and won't win a national championship and that could be said for okie state & west virginia as well.

SMU91 wrote:gord

My original point was in regards to the level of athletes we had under Rossley and would have under Jones, after his hire and the fact the R&S shoot only getting us so far. As well, most of the BCS teams Hawaii beat were not ranked having down years and most were games in Hawaii, where historically teams struggle even before JJ.

Without getting in to much detail this offense is much more complicated then most, including he spread. Requires everyone from QB, RB and WR to read the defense pre-snap and then again on the snap of the ball. Very hard thing to do in the heat of battle. If one part of the three read incorrectly most of the time the play will break down. Throw in experienced O line and it it can get ugly. It's magnified 10 times win you play against superior defenses and athletes that makes the throwing lanes even smaller even if you make the correct read and throw. For example they break faster on the ball and less RAC, which this offense depends on. Look at Hawaii vs Georgia, SMU vst ATM, etc.

Oklahoma does run some 4 wide is more of a pro style and some spread with an emphasis on a tailback.
The others you mentioned and Leach's offense are all variations of the spread which is why it's not called the run and shoot. Just different and I'm to busy to explain. Google it. There's a reason why Dez Bryant had success at Okie State, less reads etc., I'll leave it at that.
As much as I admire Leach and that offense most would agree his offense can't and won't win a national championship and that could be said for okie state & west virginia as well.

I think you misunderstand - I know what the Run and Shoot is - I'd like to know why you think running an offense that has its receivers make adjustments based on coverages is single-handedly keeping SMU from winning games against really good schools from BCS conferences.

Show me a passing offense that doesn't adjust based on coverages and I'll show you Army's offense, and if you think any of those other schools (OK State, West Va, Leach) don't adjust then you know something I don't. My Division II school in the mid-90s was running combo routes based off coverages (corner/comeback option vs Cover 2/soft corner and coverting to fade vs press coverage). And OK State and West Va use concepts that give the QB the option to pass or run AFTER THE SNAP based on the actions of a LB. Route adjustments are nothing new - the R&S offense was way ahead of its time and modern offenses have finally caught up.

As someone who has played football, I'm surprised that you're so stuck on the systems-win-championships mentality, when it is about superior talent (and always has been). Georgia beat Hawai'i, and Texas A&M beat SMU because they had better talent, not because the other team was using the Run and Shoot offense. The offense that SMU runs is not that different from what other passing offenses use. At their core they use four wide receivers to spread the defense, get the ball to their playmakers in space and let their speed take over.

And using your logic, passing teams like Oklahoma State and Texas Tech (when Leach was there) will never win a national championship... because they never have. Oklahoma scored 60 or more points in five straight games in 2008 and scored 14 against Florida in the BCS national championship game. Does this mean that Oklahoma will NEVER win a national championship again until they change offenses? No - they'll win when they have the best players. Florida's defense was better than their offense. OU used a Leach offense to win in 2000 (and let's not forget, had a pretty good defense that year too).

"A 12-0 Hawaii team lost to Georgia 41-10 in the 2008 Sugar Bowl. I think everyone would agree that was JJ's best team while at Hawaii. The Rainbows went into the game ranked number ten in the country and the score did not really reflect how lopsided the game was."

In fairness to Hawaii and June, that was a really, really good Georgia team. They stumbled against South Carolina and Tennessee that year, so weren't in the national championship picture when they played Hawaii. But there are lots of people who think the Georgia team that showed up at the Sugar Bowl that night against Hawaii was good enough to win the national championship. They were really good and they were peaking. I think Georgia finished #2 in the rankings that year.

So yes, Hawaii was totally outclassed by one of the top two teams in the country that night. But against more standard BCS fare, they did fairly well under June.

Obviously superior talented teams will win more games. Who can dispute that . But yes I believe a system with a balance of run, pass and using a ball control offense will win more championships. It doesn't expose your defense like the R&S and spread. System is equally important as talent in my opinion. With JJ's offense I believe at SMU no matter how talented we recruit we will reach and ceiling of 7-9 wins a year with little ability to beat the ATMs or better in the country. That was my point, he was a stepping stone coach. Now let's move on to bigger and better.

If recall, I saw an interview with June early last year some time, where he said that he's not tied to R&S because it's his favorite type of offense. He uses it because of the type of players he's working with (size/speed/strength). In fact, that interview was here on ponyfans.com. To me, that implies if he had the size/speed/skill of players that the SEC recruits, he probably wouldn't use R&S.

Now, we're at least starting to talk about players going into the NFL post-SMU football. That's huge, because it affords us another bargaining chip in the recruiting process. With the exception of the 80s, we've had more players under June actually make the draft than any other coach since the death penalty. Something has to be working, or the NFL is just becoming less picky about players.

Long story short.. it takes time.. and lots of it, especially when starting from virtually nothing.

skurtn wrote:If recall, I saw an interview with June early last year some time, where he said that he's not tied to R&S because it's his favorite type of offense. He uses it because of the type of players he's working with (size/speed/strength). In fact, that interview was here on ponyfans.com. To me, that implies if he had the size/speed/skill of players that the SEC recruits, he probably wouldn't use R&S.

Now, we're at least starting to talk about players going into the NFL post-SMU football. That's huge, because it affords us another bargaining chip in the recruiting process. With the exception of the 80s, we've had more players under June actually make the draft than any other coach since the death penalty. Something has to be working, or the NFL is just becoming less picky about players.

Long story short.. it takes time.. and lots of it, especially when starting from virtually nothing.

Funny, June implies that he would use a different offense if he had better players but has absolutely no interest in doing what's necessary to get those type of players. June's on his 6th class and it's going to end up no better than his 1st even with all the progress he's made (10 players in the NFL, 3 straight bowls). You could give June all the time in the world and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference in recruiting with his level of effort.