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Didn't see a post on this. Apologies if its been posted already. Thought this was interesting. Some of the old timers point to this incident as the beginning of the slippery slope that ultimately led to the DP.

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairp ... portin.php

beat me to it by 3 minutes...damn

This has never been a secret. 5 probations in 12 years-this is the first incident on the Road to the DP. I think this was identified by the Bishops Report as a turning point in the program. We had a school that was warned 4 times to clean up its own mess and by the 5th probation was still intentionally flipping the Bird to the NCAA. NCAA passed the Death Penalty circa 1985 for SMU which repeated refused to clean up their own program. (BTW UT was one of few programs to vote against the NCAA institution of a Death Penalty. SMU proved it couldn't clean up its own mess so the NCAA was perfectly justified in laying the hammer down

Stallion wrote:flipping the Bird

"You know, the finger."

Stallion wrote:This has never been a secret. 5 probations in 12 years-this is the first incident on the Road to the DP. I think this was identified by the Bishops Report as a turning point in the program. We had a school that was warned 4 times to clean up its own mess and by the 5th probation was still intentionally flipping the Bird to the NCAA. NCAA passed the Death Penalty circa 1985 for SMU which repeated refused to clean up their own program. (BTW UT was one of few programs to vote against the NCAA institution of a Death Penalty. SMU proved it couldn't clean up its own mess so the NCAA was perfectly justified in laying the hammer down

It is old news...but not well known.

Stallion...you got a lot of the facts right...but your conclusions are off. Yes, firing Hardin set things in motion...no, we did not flip off NCAA 5 times.

74 Hardin turned us in for non recruiting stuff...75 NCAA targeted us because we fired Hardin. 1981 UT turned us in for recruiting stuff. 1985 also UT and other SWC schools for recruiting stuff. After 1985 probation, we were scared out of our wits and cleaning it up. Actual DP? Total set up.

And yes UT did vote against DP...so did A&M. Too late they realized what they had unleashed.

We were cheating just about every year from 1974 through 1986 except perhaps 1975. 1974 was payola stuff. players were paid for fumbles, interceptions big plays. When a school intentionally creates a slush fund funded by some of the top alumni of the university to pay players after even a single probation how can you claim that is not flipping the Bird at the NCAA. The truth? It wasn't just "recruiting stuff" It was a well organized slush fund that delivered hundreds of thousands of cash and illegal inducements and benfits. The truth can be clearly seen by the players admitting we had a W.O. Banston Dealership at Ownby. Pay attention to the Classes those kids were recruited in. The Bishops and the NCAA didn't catch half of the cheating going on over a decade because the key people including TRUSTEES and the CHEATING ALUMNI involved refused to cooperate with the Bishops Report or the NCAA. The NCAA barely scratched the surface of what happened over the prior decade after Meyer was hired

The paying of the bonuses for making tackles, etc, under Dave Smith was penny ante and not done with alumni funds but with ticket money The coach that was doing it was pretty much on his own. We were turned in by a disgruntled alum who had been a sugar daddy during the Fry days who was mad at Dave.

Here is an interesting story from 1949.

http://photographyblog.dallasnews.com/2 ... um=twitter

Yes but the SIGNIFICANCE is that SMU's President indicated he was going to report the violations into the NCAA and was fired for doing so. That's a significant step toward lack of institutional control which played out over the next 12 years. Nobody thinks the 1974 probation was otherwise particularly important. I think its undisputed that Ron Meyer created the slush fund

I'll play...

I read your quote that we "flipped of the NCAA 5 times" and I thought you meant we flipped off the NCAA 5 times and therefore deserved to get the DP.

I didn't know you meant that we just got caught for stuff 5 times. In that case...you are correct we were investigated and caught 5 times for totally unrelated and mostly minor rules violations perpetrated by different people who had different degrees of attachment to our program over 12 years.

However, if you would like to play on the "flipping off the NCAA 5 times" quote...I'm game. You are wrong. 1974 and 1975 investigations and penalties were a joke. No recruiting violations, no boosters involved, only pocket change $ involved from a coach...who was fired.

1981 was the first real investigation for recruiting stuff with major allegations involving boosters...and the NCAA couldn't prove anything major. You might have an argument that the 1983-1985 investigation resulted because we didn't take the 1981 penalty seriously (and flipped off the NCAA). As for the 1986 DP investigation...it was a set up...it was nothing more than a continuation of the 1985 investigation.

Read the infractions reports...over and over the NCAA referenced the number of times we were investigated and not the actual violations. I'm done apologizing. We did not deserve it.

The infractions reports-none of them tell the entire truth. Tell me where it mentions Eric Dickerson getting his Trans-Am paid for? I distinctly remember him playing all 4 years. The NCAA never got to the Bottom of it. Tell me where they mentioned the parking lot that looked like a W.O. Bankston dealership. I was there. The Eric Dickerson payments were admitted by Steve Endicott in Pony Excess. I think the Offensive Coordinator knew if SMU was paying for the Trans Am. As several claimed-they will never discover how these payments went down. The Infraction Reports never uncovered half of the truth. If you think you understand NCAA's cheating scandal by reading the Infractions Report then that's laughable. None of the Fat-Cats cooperated with the NCAA or even the Bishops Report-Sherwood Blount, Cox, and even several of our most prominent Trustees refused to talk. Then you make the laughable claim that the Death Penalty was a set-up-that's simply ridiculous-That's condoning a "Payroll to Meet". That attitude is exactly why SMU got the Death Penalty because SMU proved over and over that it could not clean up its own mess and that SMU-in particular Bill clements could not be trusted because he directly lied to the NCAA in 2005-his stupid excuse-I don't rember there being a Bible in the Room. really? He not only lied to the NCAA he lied to the entire SMU community who wanted to believe his crap when he repeated promised over a 5 year period that SMU was committed to running a clean program. Lack of Institutional Control?

Stallion wrote:The infractions reports-none of them tell the entire truth. Tell me where it mentions Eric Dickerson getting his Trans-Am paid for? I distinctly remember him playing all 4 years. The NCAA never got to the Bottom of it. Tell me where they mentioned the parking lot that looked like a W.O. Bankston dealership. I was there. The Eric Dickerson payments were admitted by Steve Endicott in Pony Excess. I think the Offensive Coordinator knew if SMU was paying for the Trans Am. As several claimed-they will never discover how these payments went down. The Infraction Reports never uncovered half of the truth. If you think you understand NCAA's cheating scandal by reading the Infractions Report then that's laughable. None of the Fat-Cats cooperated with the NCAA or even the Bishops Report-Sherwood Blount, Cox, and even several of our most prominent Trustees refused to talk. Then you make the laughable claim that the Death Penalty was a set-up-that's simply ridiculous-That's condoning a "Payroll to Meet". That attitude is exactly why SMU got the Death Penalty because SMU proved over and over that it could not clean up its own mess and that SMU-in particular Bill clements could not be trusted because he directly lied to the NCAA in 2005-his stupid excuse-I don't rember there being a Bible in the Room. really? Lack of Institutional Control?

In high school I had lots of friends who had "girlfriends" in the Niagara Falls area...maybe they existed...maybe not.

I think I read you were a lawyer...if so...I think you would agree unproven allegations are still just allegations. I went off the NCAA documents and ignored the rumors and my own knowledge. Perhaps you are correct about Dickerson etc...perhaps you are incorrect. The NCAA penalties were based on the infractions they wrote up in their reports.

Any other "violations" are just gossip to me.

Perhaps? The SMU Offensive Coordinator admitted SMU was paying for Eric Dickerson car.-that evidence is legally conclusive on its principal. Legally, the SMU Death Penalty couldn't have been more clear. By SMU's own admission they continued to make a Payroll of about $52,000 in 1985 dollars(probably a couple of hundred thousand dollars now). Legally, the David Stanley story in which he claimed to have been paid $25,000 would be extremely strong evidence based on Henry Lee Parker, Bobby Collins and Bob Hitch deer-in-head lights look without any explanation. I think I know how a jury would have ruled even if SMU itself hadn't confirmed the alleation. I don't think you really want to know if the NCAA had the power to subpoena Sherwood Blount, Bill Clements, Bobby Collins, Bob Hitch, Cox and the rest of the ad hoc committee of the Board of Govenors. Barely scrapped the surface because the NCAA is not a legal organization that has subpoena power. The NCAA got all they needed by Bill Clements incompetence. Don't hide behind "speculation" when the evidence is overwhelming and the cheaters and liars failed to cooperate

Stallion wrote:Perhaps? The SMU Offensive Coordinator admitted SMU was paying for Eric Dickerson car.-that evidence is legally conclusive on its principal. Legally, the SMU Death Penalty couldn't have been more clear. By SMU's own admission they continued to make a Payroll of about $52,000 in 1985 dollars(probably a couple of hundred thousand dollars now). Legally, the David Stanley story in which he claimed to have been paid $25,000 would be extremely strong evidence based on Henry Lee Parker, Bobby Collins and Bob Hitch deer-in-head lights look without any explanation. I think I know how a jury would have ruled even if SMU itself hadn't confirmed the alleation. I don't think you really want to know if the NCAA had the power to subpoena Sherwood Blount, Bill Clements, Bobby Collins, Bob Hitch, Cox and the rest of the ad hoc committee of the Board of Govenors. Barely scrapped the surface because the NCAA is not a legal organization that has subpoena power. The NCAA got all they needed by Bill Clements incompetence. Don't hide behind "speculation" when the evidence is overwhelming and the cheaters and liars failed to cooperate

You are obviously knowledgeable, opinionated, and passionate.

It's very easy to accept what happened after everything came out(Clements involvement, SMU's Admission, coach talking in 2010 in a documantary, etc.). But my argument is based on what the NCAA knew and when they knew it. And you are right...NCAA has no supoena power and most likely would have found more if they did. But we don't live in that world.

I knew Stanley...I know what happened...so what? He is never mentioned in the NCAA proceedings or documents. You know why? Because all he had were unprovable allegations...and he was unwilling to attest to his information for the NCAA. Therefore...he doesn't exist.

Now if you are a moral absolutist...then we will just end up yelling at each other. I know what SMU did...I know what all top level programs did and continue to do. I know a lot of the cheating the NCAA does. Yes, I am a moral relativist and I do not accept the NCAA's definition of cheating when it is administered in such a flawed way.

By the way...I would be honored if you would read my book...and then try to tear me apart. If you PM me I will happily send you a copy and see if I can sway you.

Stallion wrote:We were cheating just about every year from 1974 through 1986 except perhaps 1975.

One of the few areas were we disagree on.

If you look at that period, 1974-1986, and take the Top 25 ranked programs each year, you are talking about 325 ranked schools (obviously many schools are represented more than once). I would argue that of those 325 ranked schools, over 300 cheated.

Maybe no one cheated as carelessly as us, but the point is they broke the rules or deliberately turned the other way to create the allusion of plausible deniability while still cheating. And their boards, just like ours, have a fiduciary responsibility to abide by the rules of the NCAA.

My analogy is this; someone commits a murder in a house and is stupid enough to leave their own bloody fingerprints, the murder weapon, and their wallet at the scene of the crime. Next door at the exact same time, a different murder occurs but is done so in a much more stealth manner. Punishment IMO should be driven more by the crime that was committed than by the stupidity of the criminal in getting caught. And by that criteria, the fact that we were the only school to receive the DP is shameful.