Bennett

[PK]

More for sam...OK, Peruna Punch was probably exagerating the weights for impact, but of some of the teams we have played OL averages are as follows:

San Jose: 313* - 327 the heaviest
Fresno: 322* - 335 the heaviest
Hawaii: 322* - 337 the heaviest
OSU: 309* - 355 the heaviest
Texas Tech: 311* - 331 the heaviest

Any way you look at it, at 257, Adami has a real challenge...even if they don't double team him. That's why earlier I said that he was playing over his head, because he actually did a hell of a job given the challenge. It was meant as a compliment.

*Not knowing who the starters are on these teams, I added up the five heaviest OL's and averaged the weights. If I could tell who the center was, I included him in the five regardless of his weight.



[This message has been edited by PK (edited 11-15-2002).]

[Dement-ed]

Adami has been playing his heart out all year. Pound-for-pound, he's one of the toughest players I've ever seen. Give me a team full of Allan Adami's and I'll go to war with that group any day.

[sam]

Can I an Amen.

[Horseradish]

Thats such crap. You cant take the 5 heaviest guys and try to claim they are the "average."

I'm glad none of you people were around 20 years ago to tell Joe Beard that he just didnt have the talent needed to be competitive with teams like TCU, because he only weighed 220. Eric Dickerson would have lost one of his best blockers.
Which one of you is going to tell Joe he has to give back those All-Southwest Conference awards because he isnt big enough to make you happy?

[PK]

Hey Horseradish...we aren't talking about 20 years ago, we're talking about today when they have 320lb OL's in high school for Pete's sake. Generally speaking, teams have much heavier O-lines today then they had 20 years ago.

I was refering to the average of the starting O-line and I specifically mentioned how I came up with my averages because there is no way to tell, looking at the rosters, who the starters are. I took the approach that given all things being equal, the coaches are going to put their five biggest OL's on the starting lineup. I'd be willing to bet that in most cases that the majority of the starters on the O-lines are the heaviest guys listed as OL's.

BTW, SMU had a starting O-line back during Rossley's tenure that averaged just over 300 that was listed as one of the biggest O-lines in the Nation, and that was probably eight years ago or so. Today, we have 2 OL's listed at 300 and all the rest are in the 275 to 285 range. We have gotten smaller while our competition has gotten larger.

[This message has been edited by PK (edited 11-18-2002).]

[PX]

So, if the roster doesnt tell you who the starters are, maybe you should look at the depth chart, instead? Just a thought.

Joe Beard weighed 220 in a day when most offensive linemen weighed about 260-270. The players have gotten bigger in the intervening years, but I think the example is still valid. Joe was far and away the smallest starting offensive lineman in the SWC. Probably the smallest starter at any of the top-20 teams. But he was one of the best. It wasnt just about how big you were.

In those days our Strength and Conditioning coach was a guy named Stan Cain. Cain used to say that no player, no matter how good, couldnt get better by being a little stronger than he already was. But just getting bigger wouldnt make a bad player good.
The lesson is that you have to be able to play to begin with, or being big doesnt matter.

[PK]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PX:
<B>
So, if the roster doesnt tell you who the starters are, maybe you should look at the depth chart, instead? Just a thought.</B>

Yes, well I tried that, but you can't always find the depth chart on the various schools' web sites. I believe I indeed used the one depth chart that I did find, but I couldn't tell you right now which school that was.

<B>Joe Beard weighed 220 in a day when most offensive linemen weighed about 260-270. The players have gotten bigger in the intervening years, but I think the example is still valid. Joe was far and away the smallest starting offensive lineman in the SWC. Probably the smallest starter at any of the top-20 teams. But he was one of the best. It wasnt just about how big you were.

In those days our Strength and Conditioning coach was a guy named Stan Cain. Cain used to say that no player, no matter how good, couldnt get better by being a little stronger than he already was. But just getting bigger wouldnt make a bad player good.</B>

As I said, GIVEN ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, a coach would put his biggest OL on the starting lineup. Once again, you can only measure size...not ability from a roster.

<B>The lesson is that you have to be able to play to begin with, or being big doesnt matter.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Duh!!! Come on PX...give me some credit. This whole train of thought here started out with a comment on what our mainly under sized D-line was up against with the size of our opposing team's O-lines. In fact, to the credit of Adami, he proves the point of your lesson...but, it is still a hell of a challenge and pushing around guys that out weigh you by 35 to 50 pounds for three quarters is going to have you pretty damn tired by the fourth quarter.

Now then, if you don't agree with my POINT of our D-line being asked to play over their heads because of the size disadvantage they have verses the O-lines they have to face, then state why and give your rebuttal, but don't come up with this "maybe you should look at the depth chart, instead" crap. You look at the depth charts and show me how far off my more simplistic approach was.

[Horseradish]

You were right about one thing, PK. The roster doesnt tell you who starts. So you took 5 guys and called them the starters without actually know wether any of them ever played a down. Tell me if I'm wrong? Thats the real point. You took the 5 heaviest guys because you WANTED to call them the starters to try and exaggerate your point, not because they actually were.
I looked up OSU's depth chart, and couldnt find the 355 pound guy on it anywhere. Their biggest starter was 315, and their 2nd string were all 260-275. So, apparently a bunch of much smaller guys are better players than the really big guy. How did that happen?
Thats the actual point here. You didnt know who the starters were, so you picked the guys who would make your point seem more valid, without ever knowing if any of them actually played. Thats why I said it was crap to begin with and its still crap now.

[PK]

I admit that my process was not particularly scientific or as you put it "crap", but no one else has yet to do the numbers on all the schools I looked at to show what the real averages were. I really did try to find the depth charts, but some of the sites were so mickey mouse, I was doing good to find the rosters. So we still don't know what the true averages are of the starting O-lines...but my eyes say from what I have seen at the games is that they are considerablly larger than our D-line not just a little larger. I remember the Texas Tech game in particular when our D-line could not put any pressure on their QB. We were too small to push them out of the way or even get around them...so our guys were left to just jumping up in the air in hopes of having a hand in the way of a pass if it happened to come their way. So fine, my analysis stinks, but I think my point is still valid.

BTW, I just went back to the OSU site and did find the depth chart and as you say the 355 guy isn't on there, but their starting line still averages 301. You also didn't mention that their second string is composed intirely of RS-FR and FR players. Also,the 355 guy is a FR so he obviously isn't ready and I shouldn't have used him.

I also went back to the Texas Tech site and found their depth chart (don't know how I missed it the first time) And my previous number for the starting lines average of 311 is still good. They are listed at 325, 290, 294, 337 and 310.


[This message has been edited by PK (edited 11-19-2002).]

[PX]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PK:
<B> Well, Duh!!! Come on PX...give me some credit. This whole train of thought here started out with a comment on what our mainly under sized D-line was up against with the size of our opposing team's O-lines. In fact, to the credit of Adami, he proves the point of your lesson...but, it is still a hell of a challenge and pushing around guys that out weigh you by 35 to 50 pounds for three quarters is going to have you pretty damn tired by the fourth quarter.

Now then, if you don't agree with my POINT of our D-line being asked to play over their heads because of the size disadvantage they have verses the O-lines they have to face, then state why and give your rebuttal, but don't come up with this "maybe you should look at the depth chart, instead" crap. You look at the depth charts and show me how far off my more simplistic approach was.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats intersting PK, because I found the depth chart for all 5 of the teams you named on the websites for their respective schools. It took maybe 10 minutes of looking. If they dont have a link marked Depth chart on the football page it will be in the weekly game notes. Besides the 2 you found, here are the other 3:
Fresno State, average 315.2, heaviest 330.
San Jose State, average 292.4, heaviest 306.
Hawaii, average 309.8, heaviest 320.

Suggesting you should look up the depth chart wasnt giving you crap, it was showing you where you could find the actual information. It was available and easy to find. I dont see a reason why you had to throw a hissy fit when most of what I said supported your eventual conclusion, but if you want to act that way, its your business.

Picking the 5 heaviest guys and arbitrarily deciding they must be the starters would be like saying our basketball team averages 6'9" because i averaged Rackauskas, Smith, Castro, Kelly and Simpson. The five tallest guys must be the starters.

Everthing is not always equal, and you cant assume that it is. The biggest guy doesnt automatically start. Tackles tend to be bigger than guards or centers, so some of the guys you were calling starters were actually the 2nd or 3rd string tackles.

[PK]

OK PX...Mia Culpa for the hissey fit. I was just getting tired of the fact every one was all upset about my numbers (even though I pointed out how I got them and did not claim them to be accurate) instead of addressing the point. Even with the new (accurate?) numbers I think my basic point is still valid.

BTW, thanks for the tip on the game notes...I have never really had time to read them and didn't know they contained a list of the starters...thought it was just a narrative of the game similar to a newspaper report.

[PX]

Game notes vary from school to school, but most have a recap of the previous game, and a preview of the next one. They're mainly for the media, so they contain alot of stats and things like that.

For Peruna Punch, in this weeks Sagarin rankings TCU is 43rd. Air Force is 45th.

[JPksu]

I believe Phil Bennett will get you guys to the top of the WAC - but just give him some time. You need depth and supreme athletic ability to run the kind of D that Coach Bennett is used to running.

If he's allowed to go after some of the great JUCO talent then he can turn this thing around in a hurry. Otherwise, it's going to be very difficult. I mean let's be honest, SMU isn't going to get many of the big-time Texas kids. The SMU situation is much like it was at K-STATE. We had to build w/ solid JUCO talent, HS "projects" and occasionally the blue-chip hs kid. Granted the competition we were recruiting against was much steeper than it is in the WAC but I think you get my point.

I guess all I'm saying is hang in there - us k-state fans know how it feels to be at the bottom. Hell, you guys are way ahead of where we were when Coach Snyder took over for us. Coach Bennett will employ the same "get better everyday" mantra that Coach Snyder used. And before you know it - you'll be back on top...

[WildHorse]

Thanks, JPksu. A t little encouragement from the outside world is always nice. Good luck to your 'Cats.