Is a SMU degree really that valued?

[PerunaRaider]

I have a close friend who graduated magna cum laude and was heavily involved in SMU during his undergrad career, and who is about to graduate from SMU Law with decent grades. However, this kid still cant get a job in Dallas. Is a SMU degree really that prestigious?

[smupony94]

Mine got me into more doors than I deserved to get into

[LawSchoolPony]

Getting a job out of law school is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ballgame...assuming your friend is trying to get a legal job. SMU law grads almost dominate the Dallas legal market, w/ help from our friends at UT, but if you don't graduate in the top 33% at least, its hard to have a job lined up when you graduate. They all get jobs eventually, but b/c the lower-ranked grads often end up working for small firms, they don't have jobs lined up as early b/c small firms hire later than the big ones. The average starting salary for new SMU law grads (averaging those in both public and private practice) is still $75k - pretty impressive in my opinion.

[mrydel]

Maybe he should can sue SMU for not providing him with the proper education to acquire employment. At least he will not have any legal fees.

Or have him call JTstang. I am sure he always has an extra seat somewhere in his firm. If not he knows where to get one.

[LonghornFan68]

Just like with anything, it's all about what effort you put into it. If you work hard, learn the right things and apply yourself appropriately, any degree will serve you well. If you slack off, go through the motions and do the bare minimum to graduate then it doesn't matter what school your degree is from.

[NickSMU17]

Not to mention that the legal field is over supplied and no one is getting jobs, including non top 25 graduates of U of Chicago and Northwestern here in Chicago.

[abezontar]

It also depends a lot on how much effort he is putting into the job search process, and how well he interacted with associates during his clerkships. I know coming from the engineering school, when I graduated the kids who had done the co-op program had a much easier time getting full-time jobs right out the gate, those that didn't had to work a little harder to get their first job, but usually it didn't take that long and they made just as much money.

I assume that law school is the same way, if you put in the effort to find internships and clerkships, and then work well with the firms you will have a much easier time of getting a job, or of having one lined up at graduation. If your friend didn't, he will probably have to work harder, and turn over a few more stones to get that first job. If he didn't put in the effort during the summers prior it probably will seem insurmountable now, but it can be done.

[SMU Football Blog]

I have a close friend who graduated magna cum laude and was heavily involved in SMU during his undergrad career, and who is about to graduate from SMU Law with decent grades. However, this kid still cant get a job in Dallas. Is a SMU degree really that prestigious?

Law firms really don't care about undergraduate grades. They should, but they don't. They only care about law school grades. If your friend has "decent" law school grades, that probably means your friend is like a lot of people that did so-so his first year in law school and better the second year. Unfortunately, the prime interview time for big law firm jobs is the fall after your first year. Thus, first year grades matter the most. They are what gets you on law review; they are what get you interviews with the largest law firms that do the bulk of the on campus interviewing at law schools.

Plus, and all law school students and grads will attest to this. In law school there are some smart people that just don't get it for some reason. They did great in college, got to law school and were absolutely stunned when they got their first semester law school grades. The ability to translate undergrad success to law school success never materialized for them. A good example is the guy with the photographic memory that went nuts in the "Paper Chase" movie.

What I tell people I know planning on going to law school is to treat it like a job. Bust your tail, at least that first year. After that, everything is gravy.

If you are top 10-15-20% in law school after the first year, chances are you are probably getting a pretty good job without much effort. If you are top third, you are going to have to work harder to get a job. Below that, you are going to have to bust your tail to get a job.

Of course, I don't know much, I graduated during the dotcom boom years. I got a job pretty easily and had two raises before I ever started working.

[PerunaRaider]

Thank you all for the advice. I always carried the notion that when you graduated from SMU Law School you were pretty much set. However, he has learned that reality paints a different picture.

[SMU Football Blog]

Thank you all for the advice. I always carried the notion that when you graduated from SMU Law School you were pretty much set. However, he has learned that reality paints a different picture.

If you are talking regardless of grades, then that description applies to maybe ten law schools nationwide adn maybe a half dozen business schools. That being said, in the Dallas area, an SMU degree will serve you better than anything other than UT. In Houston, the same applies to University of Houston.

[Cheesesteak]

Firms intensifying lawyer recruitment

Tactics to woo stars include volunteering, schmoozing, money

Dallas Business Journal - April 14, 2006by Dave MooreStaff Writer

Matching law students with law firms is a dance. Students juggle schoolwork (memorizing case law) with cocktail party banter. Partners gauge answers, wondering if the students have what it takes to keep their good thing going.

The dance has become year-round as of late because business has been good at law offices in North Texas. Many firms have also boosted pay for entry-level associates to keep pace with West and East Coast firms, creating the first across-the-board pay hike for lawyers at large law firms since the tech boom of the late 1990s.

Still, dollar signs are not enough to attract the best and the brightest who are looking for a little more than a fat paycheck and medium rare cut of filet mignon.

50 yard line to food line
"We've had one of these dinners on the 50-yard-line at Texas Stadium, and invited some players to stop by," said Bill Brewer of the litigation-only shop of Bickel & Brewer, which doesn't plan to increase associates' pay, because starters already receive $175,000 coming in. "We did it (the 50-yard-line stadium dinner) because we thought it was fun," said Brewer, adding that the firm doesn't hold such events to lure associates. But the firm does invite prospective associates to a variety of events -- from pick-up basketball games to trips to New York -- to get a feel for whether the young men and women have the same approach to law as other Bickel & Brewer lawyers.

"All of these young men and women have numerous opportunities," Brewer said. "If this isn't the kind of place where you think you're going to fit in ... take another offer."

While Bickel & Brewer and other firms pride themselves on pro bono legal efforts, Vinson & Elkins recently incorporated community service with the notion of a social mixer on April 1 at the North Texas Food Bank, where about 10 Southern Methodist University law students stood elbow-to-elbow with partners, eyeing dented cans for hints of botulism and filling boxes with jars of creamy peanut butter, boxes of Rice-a-Roni and canned corn niblets.

"My main thing is, with a lot of law firms, they have a kind of happy hour event that's more formal and you have to worry about trying to eat in front of someone," said first-year SMU law student Ashley Beane.

Weil, Gotshal and Manges L.L.P. has affinity groups to recruit, retain and mentor associates from a variety of minority groups -- including Asian, black, female, lesbian and gay, said Susan Shores, manager of recruiting and client relations for the Dallas office.

Like many other firms, Weil offers summer clerkships, where besides working on cases and client services, students learn about pro bono work. Weil clerks also take part in an art crawl, a scavenger hunt through Dallas and a trip to New York, said Yvette Ostolaza, hiring partner for the Dallas office of Weil.

Vinson & Elkins was among the first law firms with a Dallas office to increase pay for its starting-level associates from $115,000 to $135,000. The initial hikes lit a debate at firms across the D-FW area regarding whether to follow suit. (Firms are also increasing pay for current associates.)

Some argued against the raise, for the reason that it would raise rates for clients who are doing business in Texas because they want to avoid the high cost of doing business on the coasts. Still, those apprehensions are often being overridden by the desire to keep pace with firms offering more money for students with similar qualifications. Many firms will adjust hourly billing rates as a result.

"We're notifying clients," said Scott Olson, managing shareholder for Greenberg Traurig L.L.P. "Some have greater concerns than others."

Olson said, "There's no doubt about it that there might be some type of client you might lose. Rates might push clients to another type of firm."

Other lawyers said that while rates at those firms might go up, many partners will expect more work from associates, lengthen the time it takes them to become partners, and reduce their share of the profits.

"It is an important consideration, because a lot of us are going to be getting out of school with a large amount of debt," said 24-year-old Eric Camp, an SMU law student who volunteered to pack boxes at the North Texas Food Bank. "But I'm more interested in a good quality of life."

[EastStang]

First, unless you're on law review the big firms don't want you. Decent grades do not get you into a mega firm with a mega salary. You then are forced to go the old fashioned route of pounding the pavement, blanket letter writing, and see if rain comes. You can apply for government lawyer jobs with the U.S. government, or state and local government offices in Dallas including prosecutor's office. This is a really smart path, because it gives you specific skills for 5-10 years down the road that law firms want. Some middle of the class law school grads, go out on their own. This is where old friends are great. They provide you potential clients who might give you some minor collection work, or an occasional will to write. You can get yourself on the court appointed list and defend criminals and learn on the job. You get appointed to jobs like guardian ad litem for incompetency hearings. In other words, you get enough to maybe eake out a small living, but build your skills and hope to grow your practice. It depends how entrepreneurial your friend is. If he or she is totally risk averse, then they should look to the government for a job. If they are willing to work hard, they might very well do well on their own. Yes, I am an SMU undergrad with a law degree from William and Mary. But I grew up and settled in my home town in Virginia and started practicing with an older lawyer, just the two of us. So, there are jobs out there, you just have to look very very hard and be realistic in your search.

[MrMustang1965]

Why hasn't Stallion weighed in on this discussion? Isn't he an attorney?

[SMUltimedia]

Law isn't my field, but isn't it also true that going to the same grad school (any field) as your undergrad institution will diminish your prospects somewhat?

[that's great raplh]

The average starting salary for new SMU law grads (averaging those in both public and private practice) is still $75k - pretty impressive in my opinion.

chump change compared to what a wall street typhoon from SMU Cox makes...