"Lack of Institutional Control"

[perunapower]

If You are arrested by the DPD for killing MrExcitement1968 because he wouldn't stop ringing a Cowbell in your ear at the SMU/Sam Houston State Monument game do you think a Court would allow you defend yourself with evidence that someone else killed Big10LoserFan because he annoyed you with constant babbling about Woody Hayes in a separate offense but the police didn't catch him. Your defense would be irrelevant to the crime of lilling MrEcitement1968. You and I would cry Taint Fair but the evidence wouldn't be admissible.

So, if a professor is giving a test and the entire class is cheating, one student fails becuase he cheats. But wait, the professor knew of others cheating but did nothing about it or even bothered to look at the others while the cheating was happening. I would say that the professor owes some accountability to the other cheaters. That is how I see the NCAAA. It owed accountablility to all members of the organization when it was looking at the improprities of SMU. Look at the context in which they took place.

Why are we acting like 5-year olds saying "but they..."? Yeah, it wasn't fair. Let's get over it. Life is never fair. We cheated, we paid the price, and it hurt. There is absolutely no good done in getting puffy and folding our arms with our bottom lip pouting because we got caught with our hand in the cookie jar. We took our licks, now let's move on.

[couch 'em]

I say if everyone is cheating, then cheating is no longer cheating - avoiding the refs (or the NCAA) is just part of the game. We need to learn from the mistakes of our past. You cannot just get good all of a sudden. And you can't get too many players on the take so that you are forced to keep paying them. And you can't spread out the responsibility. We should be building up slowly, one or two players here and there just to gain momentum. We should also take care to have one person involved in everything, so if we do attract the attention, we can have one person take all the blame. You can't fix it over night.

[smudad]

"DURHAM, N.C. (AP) -- Miami came to Duke embarrassed after getting caught up in one of the worst on-field fights in college football history. "

I'd say embarrasing them is next to impossible - at least in terms of being caught in untoward behavior.

"And the Hurricanes, the most-penalized team in the conference, were flagged 12 times for 120 yards.

"We definitely had the refs against us. I think that was pretty evident," Kyle Wright said. "

They've learned exactly nothing. 'Mamma Donna', the enabler, has left them believing, simply, the world is against them, they will be punished for window-dressing only and in true Al Davis style, just win - whatever it takes.

[jtstang]

If You are arrested by the DPD for killing MrExcitement1968 because he wouldn't stop ringing a Cowbell in your ear at the SMU/Sam Houston State Monument game do you think a Court would allow you defend yourself with evidence that someone else killed Big10PonyFan because he annoyed you with constant babbling about Woody Hayes in a separate offense but the police didn't catch him. Your defense would be irrelevant to the crime of lilling MrEcitement1968. You and I would cry Taint Fair but the evidence wouldn't be admissible.

Of all the people on pf.com, what's your reason for picking me as an example...especially in a murder?

It's called a hypothetical, used all the time in law school. Now be ready, MrMustang90210, under the Socratic method, you may called on next.

[jtstang]

JT/Stallion .....your name David Berst by any chance?

No. Is your name ostrich by any chance? Why do you have your head buried in the sand?

Did you even click on the link I provided and read the report? Let me summarize it for you: "We, the NCAA, have given you, SMU slaps on the wrist about five times in the last ten years and told you to straighten up your act each time, and you told us each time you would, and you lied each time, so we are handing you the most severe penalty we can because we don't believe you anymore."

You can argue fairness all you want, but go look at the SMU enforcement history, five probations in eleven years, all involving improper benefits to recruits and players. Do the math-if you say that each probation averages two years, it easy to see SMU continued to violate during probationary periods despite lesser sanctions being handed down. Now show some friggin credibility and go find the other team with that kind of dismal record on the NCAA major infractions database, then link to it here so we can all see what you are griping about. Then I might agree with you that under the SMU precedent, tht other team may have deserved the death penalty, but I will never agree with you that SMU did not.

[PonyFan]

.... They've learned exactly nothing. 'Mamma Donna', the enabler, has left them believing, simply, the world is against them, they will be punished for window-dressing only and in true Al Davis style, just win - whatever it takes.

She's the genius who announced that she wouldn't strip their scholarships, she wouldn't punish to satisfy public opinion .... and she wouldn't watch the videotapes of the brawl, thereby seeing first-hand how attrociously her team behaved (as did FIU, of course, although FIU had no stomping and helmet-swinging), and how her guys deserved more punishment than the FIU guys, not less.

There are some on here who have less-than-flattering things to say about our own late A. Kenneth Pye. But Donna Shalala is the most embarrassing excuse for a university president I've ever seen.

[smudad]

She was roasted again this morning on the Sprots Reports - By John Saunders, the most even of those guys. I have heard not a single defense of her actions and response as President of U of M. Normally, former athletes are more understanding. However, even Mike Golic took DS to task this last week on his show. I would say the denial is complete and total when she hasn't a single defender -not one.

[jtstang]

Well you started out saying you wanted to compare the '80s SMU teams with the "thugs" on Miami. Now you want to change this to a "defending UM's president" thread. I looked back, and I do not see anywhere where anybody defended her actions.

Bottom line, having a team that got in a fight, even a ridiculous one like last week, does not get you the death penalty, nor should it. Doing what SMU did in an eleven year period from 1976-1987 does, and rightfully so.

[couch 'em]

Doing what SMU did in an eleven year period from 1976-1987 does, and rightfully so.

What SMU was caught doing. The lesson is "don't get caught."

[jtstang]

What SMU was caught doing. The lesson is "don't get caught."

Well, sure, but that logic applies equally cheating by an NCAA institution, and to speeding and to serial murder too.

[smudad]

I guess my point would always be, SMU was caught breaking NCAA rules. They were penalized again in the late 90's. All of this cited lack of insitutional control - over money - monetary consideration going to players. There are no laws governing such behavior. Yet, when an institution sanctions fielding thugs who, week after week engage in activity of the nature of the U of M - physical activity that, outside the stadium would have the thugs arrested and in jail - and get exactly nothing from the conference or the NCAA, I think I know what matters, according to their actions and their rules - money. The NFL suspsended a player - deprived him of his livelyhood - for exactly the same behavior exhibited by the U of M players. The NFL guy just had better aim. Criminal charges were left to the guy who was stomped on. I wish he had pressed them.

My basis for wanting to compare the SMU case and U of M is the comparison of the protection of the system of the rich win, the poor lose, over the safety of players and repeated violence exhibited by the players of certain schools. The money offenses get death penalty. The physical violence gets a slap. Great hierarchy of punishment.

[Stallion]

there may be no laws but each university contractually agrees to abide by all NCAA rules in order to retain membership in the NCAA. If SMU wanted to start its own league with its own rules it was free to do so-but SMU was contractually required to follow NCAA rules and contractually required to accept NCAA sanction or appeal-which by the way they didn't-thereby foreclosing all legal redress in Federal and State Court since it failed to exhaust all administrative remedies prior to seeking its remedy in the Courts.

[RGV Pony]

SMU was contractually required to follow NCAA rules and contractually required to accept NCAA sanction or appeal-which by the way they didn't-thereby foreclosing all legal redress in Federal and State Court since it failed to exhaust all administrative remedies prior to seeking its remedy in the Courts.

Stallion, I think that's an often forgotten point about the whole mess. SMU sought relief by thinking it could go toe to toe with the NCAA. Where were all of the well-grounded attorneys who should have been advising SMU at the time? Then again, I guess when the Gov says do something one way, that's the way you need to do it.

[J.T.supporta]

"It's not cheating if you don't get caught!"

[mrydel]

"It's not cheating if you don't get caught!"

Yes it is. Please quit saying that. Character is defined by what you do when no one else is around. If you think it truely is not cheating if you do not get caught, please do not breed.