Virginia Tech shooting spree

[mrydel]

Come on Mr. Science and fact. Violent crime in England has increased proportionally with tighter gun control. If you promise to be in charge of keeping the criminals from carrying guns and tell me how you are going to do that, I will give mine up. Until then I will defend myself.

[KnuckleStang]

Drugs have been illegal forever, but I've never talked to a user who had any problem obtaining drugs.

If guns were outlawed, it would do nothing, except empower criminals and [deleted] off law-abiding citizens (and quite possibly make criminals out of some of them).

[jtstang]

The problem with that mrydel is right now both you and the criminals can get the guns used in these types of crimes. Under tighter and stricter controls, perhaps including limiting the TYPES of guns available to the public, you could still get a gun, but the criminals could not get the guns they want, at least not as easily as they do now.

Now I'll be the first to admit it may not work in the end, but it certainly merits discussion.

[EastStang]

Some facts. Virginia does permit concealed weapons with a permit. To get a permit, you need to pass a criminal background check and take a gun safety course. However, a holstered weapon in plain sight is pretty much legal with or without a permit. Anyone with a valid Virginia id can buy one gun per day. There is a three day wait for guns under federal law, the Brady Bill. Guns are not permitted on the Virginia Tech campus by State law, except for their Corp of cadets (Virginia Tech is Virginia's version of A&M). The school cops thought they had apprehended the shooter in the dorm, but were wrong. No one knows why this kid shot the couple in the dorm and then went to the engineering school building and a German class in particular. This is a great tragedy which could have happened anywhere. Virginia is a strong gun rights state. It has a large hunting community and remember, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson wrote the 2nd Amendment. If they wrote it, Virginia honors it. This is just a natural extension of the violence on video games, movies and television. Life is cheapened and people die.

[Stallion]

Are you sure you need a permit to get a gun in Virginia. Here's a 2005 Report Card on Virginia Gun Laws. If we are going to debate it-might as well have the facts. This source which I think is related to the Brady Group gives Virgina a C- grade:


VIRGINIA STATE LAWS - Click On Law Below For Details

Anti-Trafficking
Is there a one-handgun-per-month limit on gun sales?
Yes

Assault Weapons
Are there limitations on assault weapons and magazines?
No


Attorney General Regulations
May Attorney General regulate guns?
No

Background Check At State Level
Do state police perform a background check in addition to federal NICS check?
Yes


Ballistic Fingerprinting
Must handguns be ballistic fingerprinted prior to sale?
No

CCW Limits
May police limit carrying concealed handguns?
No


Child Access Prevention - CAP
Are gun owners held accountable for leaving guns accessible to kids?
Yes

Child-Safety Locks
Must locking devices be sold with guns?
No


Gun Manufacturer Accountability
Do cities have authority to hold gun makers legally liable?
No

Gun Show Checks
Are background checks required at gun shows?
No


Juvenile Possession
Are minors restricted from possessing guns?
Partial

Juvenile Sale
Is it illegal to sell guns to kids?
Partial


License or Permit to Purchase
Is a license/permit required to buy handguns?
No

Local Gun Laws - Preemption
May cities enact laws stronger than the state's?
No


Record Keeping
May police maintain gun sale records?
Partial

Registration
Are all guns registered with law enforcement?
No


Safety Standards
Are there consumer safety standards on guns?
No

Safety Training
Is safety training required for handgun buyers?
No


Saturday Night Specials
Are there limitations on 'junk' handguns?
No

School Zones
Is it illegal for CCW permit holders to carry guns into schools?
Yes


Secondary Sales
Are background checks required on 'private' gun sales?
No

Waiting Period
Is there a waiting period on gun sales?
No




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANTI-TRAFFICKING
Is there a one-handgun-per-month limit on gun sales? Yes

State law restricts gun-trafficking by limiting the number of handguns that can be purchased at one time. No more than one handgun may be purchased by a person within a 30-day period. This restriction on bulk-buying of handguns helps prevent gun traffickers from buying handguns at gun stores and reselling them on the street to criminals.




ASSAULT WEAPONS
Are there limitations on assault weapons and magazines? No

No state restriction on the sale or possession of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons like the AK47 and Uzi. Assault weapons are as easy to buy as hunting rifles. No restriction on the sale or possession of rapid-fire ammunition magazines that can fire up to 100 bullets without reloading. Federal law does prevent the sale of some assault weapons and rapid-fire magazines manufactured after 1994, but the federal law will sunset in 2004 unless Congress and President Bush renew it.



ATTORNEY GENERAL REGULATIONS
May Attorney General regulate guns? No

Virgina: State law does not clearly authorize the Attorney General to independently regulate firearms or establish gun safety standards as part of the Attorney General�s responsibility to protect consumers.



BACKGROUND CHECK AT STATE LEVEL
Do state police perform a background check in addition to federal NICS check? Yes

Virginia: State law requires gun buyers to go through a state-based criminal background check in addition to the federal NICS check. This is the best system since it includes checking both state and federal records to prevent criminals and other prohibited people from buying guns. in 2000, 2,568 gun buyers failed the criminal background check and were stopped from buying guns.



BALLISTIC FINGERPRINTING
Must handguns be ballistic fingerprinted prior to sale? No

No state requirement that gun dealers or manufacturers provide police with sample bullets/cartridges or digital images of bullets/cartridges prior to the sale of a handgun, �ballistic fingerprinting,� which would assist police in tracing bullets at crime scenes to the guns that fired them.



CCW LIMITS
May police limit carrying concealed handguns? No

State law forces police chiefs and state sheriffs to give concealed carry permits (CCW) to anyone who can buy a handgun, allowing them to carry loaded, concealed handguns in public (known as �shall issue�). Police may not even require safety training in the legal or safe use of weapons for CCW applicants. State law allows residents of some other states to carry concealed weapons in this state without informing local police.



CHILD ACCESS PREVENTION - CAP
Are gun owners held accountable for leaving guns accessible to kids? Yes

State law holds gun owners responsible if they leave a gun easily accessible to a child under 14 years old and the child uses the gun to injure or threaten someone.



CHILD-SAFETY LOCKS
Must locking devices be sold with guns? No

No state requirement that guns be sold with child-safety locks that could prevent a tragic accident. Child-safety locks cost as little as $10 and could save lives if sold with firearms.



GUN MANUFACTURER ACCOUNTABILITY
Do cities have authority to hold gun makers legally liable? No

State law forbids city and county governments from taking any legal action to hold gun manufacturers accountable, even when they act irresponsibly in the way they design, market or distribute weapons. No other industry enjoys such special immunity for irresponsible conduct.



GUN SHOW CHECKS
Are background checks required at gun shows? No

No state requirement that a Brady criminal background check be done on people buying guns at gun shows if they are sold by "private" individuals or gun "collectors." Gun shows can operate on a "no questions asked, cash-and-carry" basis, making it easy for criminals and even juveniles to buy as many guns as they want at gun shows, including assault weapons. No records are required to be kept on gun show sales by private individuals or gun collectors, making it almost impossible for police to trace such weapons if they are used in a crime.



JUVENILE POSSESSION
Are minors restricted from possessing guns? Partial

State law restricts juveniles under 18 from possessing handguns or assault weapons without parental permission or authorized supervision. But there are no restrictions on juveniles possessing other rifles or shotguns.



JUVENILE SALE
Is it illegal to sell guns to kids? Partial

State law restricts selling or giving handguns to juveniles under 18, and other firearms to juveniles under 12. There are no limits on selling or giving kids 12 or older rifles, shotguns or even assault weapons - without even parental permission.



LICENSE OR PERMIT TO PURCHASE
Is a license/permit required to buy handguns? No

No state requirement that handgun buyers obtain a handgun license or undergo any type of safety training prior to buying a handgun.



LOCAL GUN LAWS - PREEMPTION
May cities enact laws stronger than the state's? No

State law forbids local city or county governments from enacting any local gun laws, even though the state has failed to pass responsible state-wide laws. This preemption of local government authority makes it impossible for cities to enact sensible gun laws to make their citizens safer. Local laws enacted prior to 1987 were allowed to remain in force.



RECORD KEEPING
May police maintain gun sale records? Partial



Virginia: State law authorizes law enforcement to keep a record for up to 12 months, of every handgun sold in the state by licensed gun dealers in order to enforce the state's restriction on bulk buying of handguns (one-handgun-per-month law). But the state does not keep any records on the sale of rifles or shotguns or on the "private" sale of handguns by individuals. In addition, the governing body of any county may require sellers of handguns to submit detailed sales records to the county clerk. The handgun sale records are maintained by police for use in gun tracing and related criminal investigations and to verify compliance with the state's one handgun per month law. But the state does not automatically compare past gun sale records with recent criminal activity to identify and disarm felons and others who bought guns legally, but later committed a crime or otherwise became ineligible to keep possession of their firearms.




REGISTRATION
Are all guns registered with law enforcement? No

No state requirement that gun owners register their firearms. Police do not know how many guns are in the state or where they are. The lack of registration data makes it more difficult for police to trace guns used in crime, identify illegal gun traffickers or hold gun owners accountable for their weapons. There is no state system to automatically identify and disarm felons and other prohibited people who bought guns legally in the past, but later committed a crime or otherwise became ineligible to keep possession of their firearms.



SAFETY STANDARDS
Are there consumer safety standards on guns? No

No state requirement that handguns meet any basic safety standards. No requirement that guns be sold with a child-safety lock or a built-in �personalized� lock to prevent unauthorized use. No requirement that handguns have loaded-chamber indicators or magazine safety disconnects that could prevent unintentional shootings. The state Attorney General is not allowed to independently establish handgun safety standards.



SAFETY TRAINING
Is safety training required for handgun buyers? No

No state requirement that handgun buyers receive any safety training at all. No requirement that handgun buyers demonstrate any familiarity with gun laws or knowledge about safe handling/safe storage of handguns.



SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIALS
Are there limitations on 'junk' handguns? No

No state restriction on the sale of Saturday night specials or "junk" handguns. No requirement that handguns meet any safety tests such as a drop-safety test or a firing-performance test. No restriction on the sale of snub-nosed handguns that are very small and easy to conceal.




SCHOOL ZONES
Is it illegal for CCW permit holders to carry guns into schools? Yes

Virginia - state law generally prohibits carrying concealed handguns into schools, even if the gun owner has a CCW permit.


SECONDARY SALES
Are background checks required on 'private' gun sales? No

No state requirement that criminal background checks be done on people buying firearms at gun shows, swap meets or through newspaper or internet advertisements. Criminal background checks are only required if the buyer goes to a federally-licensed gun store - all other sales are not subject to the background check.




WAITING PERIOD
Is there a waiting period on gun sales? No

No state requirement that there be a waiting period for gun sales beyond the "instant check" in federal law. Police are not given any additional time to run a criminal background check to make sure the gun buyer is not prohibited from acquiring firearms. There is no "cooling off" period to help prevent crimes of passion.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The gun law summaries provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence should not be regarded as explanation of state law. While we try to keep this information accurate and updated, this material is provided for general discussion and reference purposes only.




2005 State Report Card C-

Virginia Receives a "C-" on Laws Shielding Families From Gun Violence
Legislation Grade Comments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Juvenile Possession Law B YES, must be 18 for handguns and assault weapons
Juvenile Sale/Transfer Law B YES, must be 18 for handguns, 12 for other firearms
Child Access Prevention Law C YES, under 14
Gun Safety Locks and Safer Design Standards F NONE
Allow Cities To Regulate Guns (Non-Preempt) F NO
Secondary "Private" Sales Background Checks F NO
Carrying Concealed Weapons Law F No police discretion, no training required, reciprocity

Extra Credit Demerits

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Defeated NRA proposal to allow loaded hidden guns in bars. One-handgun-per-month law. Prohibits lawsuits against gun industry, preempted local laws on guns in city buildings.


Links Grading Criteria
National Press Release


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ts

[mrydel]

The "fact" I understand in Virginia (I do not have evidence to this so I speak lightly) is that although there is a very loose policy on the right to carry a gun, the legislature passed an act that prohibited the carrying of a gun on campus so, paraphrasing the legislator, "our children can be safe on campus now that I have sponsored this bill to rid the campus of guns". Gun control only limits the obtaining of guns by honest, upright citizens. Come on JT. Do you actually believe a criminal could not get a gun if he wanted one. Even if he could not get the one he wanted, I would imagine he would make do. Someone tell me in sincerity how you keep the bad guys from getting guns. If we ban them all today, will the gang bangers line up and turn them in. I personally do not carry a gun, but had I been on the VT campus yesterday, I sure would have been praying that someone in my class did.

[expony18]

that was way to long to read... but even as a hunter i think the gun laws could be tightened up a little bit. that's not to say we let all of the tree hugging liberals go crazy, but it is way too easy to get a hold of semi-automatic & automatic weapons. this past summer i spent two weeks in africa hunting and their laws do not allow you to bring ANY automatic or semi-automatic weapon (including semiautomatic shotguns) in to their countries. but in the good ole USA, you can go to any bass pro shop or cabelas and walk out in 20 minutes with a new semi-auotmatic shotgun as long as you pass the screening. not to mention it doesn't take a genius to figure out how to alter the gun to be completely automatic, and add some banana clips..

and as for the argument that illegal drugs are easy to get ahold... i'm not sure what all the laws are on automatic weapons (possession, transportation both intrastate and interstate, sales, etc.), but by increasing the penalties (fines, jail time, prohibited from buying any weapons), and stricter policies on purchasing these weapons would be a good place to start...


lets not forget though that he was using a 9mm, not you're typical choice of weapon when you are trying to do this much damage... the kid new what he was doing, the amount of people killed and injured is hard to imagine

[mrydel]

This really is not even a gun control debate. Nowhere in our country is gun control any tighter than on a campus in Virginia, and look what happened. That should prove that gun control does not work.

[expony18]

this is what you have to look out for: http://www.komotv.com/news/6367017.html




Blues Traveler Arrest

[expony18]

That should prove that gun control does not work.

so should we make cars illegal?
http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html

[mrydel]

That should prove that gun control does not work.

so should we make cars illegal?
http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html

I think you have me on the wrong side. I am for freedom and constitution rights. But if you want to outlaw cars thats fine too. Of course then only the outlaws would have cars and catching them would be difficult.

[EastStang]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. You don't need a license to own or carry a gun. Any slob can walk down the middle of King Street here in beautiful old town Alexandria with a loaded gun in his hand and the cops can't do anything about it unless he aims it at someone or "brandishes it". (Hint, still a stupid thing to do, because the Cops may conclude that you are brandishing it, and shoot you first and then said you brandished it). If its in a holster in plain sight, you are perfectly within your rights in Virginia to look like Wyatt Earp and no permit is required. You need a license to carry a concealed weapon (of any type including by the way nunchuks, Bowie knives, etc). You need to show a valid Virginia drivers license or photo identification to buy a gun in Virginia, so that the dealer can plug your name into the computer.

[expony18]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. You don't need a license to own or carry a gun. Any slob can walk down the middle of King Street here in beautiful old town Alexandria with a loaded gun in his hand and the cops can't do anything about it unless he aims it at someone or "brandishes it". (Hint, still a stupid thing to do, because the Cops may conclude that you are brandishing it, and shoot you first and then said you brandished it). If its in a holster in plain sight, you are perfectly within your rights in Virginia to look like Wyatt Earp and no permit is required. You need a license to carry a concealed weapon (of any type including by the way nunchuks, Bowie knives, etc). You need to show a valid Virginia drivers license or photo identification to buy a gun in Virginia, so that the dealer can plug your name into the computer.

i knew what you meant, i just didnt want to read all of Stallions post.

[jtstang]

Come on JT. Do you actually believe a criminal could not get a gun if he wanted one. Even if he could not get the one he wanted, I would imagine he would make do. Someone tell me in sincerity how you keep the bad guys from getting guns. If we ban them all today, will the gang bangers line up and turn them in.

For an authomatic handgun ban to work, I think you have to make the penalty for carrying illegal an illegal one so stiff it truly is a deterrent. Make it a 20 year, no parole, one strike offense, and maybe it's just too risky. The bad guys will continue to carry, but maybe when a few of them get sent away for merely carrying, actual use will be deterred. Just maybe.

[mr. pony]

[quote="Nacho"]The only way to stop these seneless tragedies is to get automatic weapons out of society. [/quote]
And how do you propose doing that? Nuts won't play by the rules, remember.