Nice Espn Article

[Heisman7Life]

Hmm. Where to start.....bashing Georgia? Please I gave the coaching staff the credit. Also Marcus Howard's official times go along with his weight.....225lbs? Please that is a running back and it is not anywhere near being a phenom. All the DE's/OLB's you named are4 all in the 255 to 270 range. Tell Mr. Howard to gain some and run that. Dwight Freeney being 6'1 265 lbs is a phenom who ran a 4.4. Also Garrett that 4 of the teams you listed run some sort of spread. Also I did not say TCU's line was better than Georgia. I SAID SCHEME and COACHING played a big part against these teams. Georgia coaching staff's seems brilliant against spread teams. USF has killed West Virginia on defense for the last few years. Guess what some of the 'big' coaching staffs are going there to learn the ins and outs of slowing down/stopping the spread. Back to Howard...is it a wonder that all of these players where picked before Mr. Howard?


Quentin Groves: 2nd round.
Vernon Gholston: 1st round.
Shawn Crable: 3rd round.
Marcus Howard: 5th round. Also they list him at OLB.
In fact, there was a DE picked from McNeese State/Winston Salem/never mind the fact that NE picked Crable far ahead of Marcus Howard and I tend to think the Pats know a little about picking talent. Also note that an OLB from Montana was picked before him. He made plays against spread teams again because they lined him in a 'Jet' formation which is a few yards outside the tackle and basically allows him to sprint to the QB. I want to get off of Georgia because they are a great team, but give the coaching staff more credit. Again Mark Richt and his staff won that game.

Florida: Spread team.
Troy: Unless Demarcus Ware is playing OT. Please.
Kentucky: Spread.
Georgia Tech: Variant of the spread. Also they towered over Duke/Samford and Notre Dame. Dominating team.

Tell me the teams Georgia had problems with this year? South Carolina (not a spread team) and Tennessee (not a spread team either.). Hmmm. Vanderbilt?


Do you know the type of blocking scheme Hawaii even used? Since you guys possess the DVD's and playbooks of the R & S let's talk playbook. The OT's in JJ's scheme can be beaten by speed on the outside. If you can bring pressure from the outside without blitzing it will cause the scheme to break down in front. This should be easily fixed by running draws and dives up the gut. But in JJ's R&S that doesn't happen. Quickly name me some of the best offenses in the NFL? Patriots use Shotgun and a lot of Leach/Meyer's spread attack. But when they were at there best they were in a 3 wide 1 TE formation with maroney/faulk/morris pounding up the middle and allowing the DL to be slowed enough on PA to allow those beautiful passes downfield to Moss and Company. Again scheme maximizes the talent you have. Sure as I stated earlier if you have the 2000-2003 Hurricanes you almost don't have to coach. Remember Devin Hester didn't even start for the Hurricanes.


Funny, no one is mentioning Boise State, which had it's first 1st round pick in what 20 years? They beat Oklahoma when Oklahoma clearly had the better talent. Which one? Adrian Peterson or Ian Johnson? The vast majority of Oklahoma's players were more TALENTED but Boise State's coaching staff put their players in better position to win. Again explain the X's and O's of football and you realize talent is one part of the triangle of winning. Planning/Talent/Execution. The coaches have to make the best plan they can. The players have to have some talent. But execution makes the game. If it was all up to talent Ryan Leaf and Jeff George would be household names of greatness as opposed to Peyton Manning and Joe Montana. Neither were blessed with phenomal tools but thru hard work made themselves the best. Talent doesn't win games. But it does help.

[RGV Pony]

If you can bring pressure from the outside without blitzing it will cause the scheme to break down in front.

Tell me an offensive system where that isn't the case.

Last comment on Georgia: the last time I saw them in person, their speed and athleticism dominated the game, and the opposing starting quarterback was knocked out of the game as a result of relentless pressure from the outside. The first play run by the young backup quarterback from his own 3 yard line resulted in a pick-6, after getting rid of the ball in desperation in the face of relentless pressure from the outside. Remember David Pollack? Undersized defensive end from UGA?

The opposing team? LSU. The young QB who threw the pick-6? Matt Flynn, who recently won a national title.

UGA does the same thing to some elite teams as well. I don't think anyone bitched about Jimbo Fisher's offensive scheme and weaknesses after that game. Nor his successor Gary Crowton.

[SMU 86]

Funny, no one is mentioning Boise St

Didn't June Jones' Hawaii team beat Boise St last year?

[Heisman7Life]

Has Hawaii beaten a BCS top ten school yet?


Actually, in the I formation pressure brought from the outside is easily negated with a power running scheme. Try spreading your DE's that far apart against any other offense besides the R & S teams, the Air Raider pffenses and see what happens. Hell, do that against West Virginia and see if they don't zone block you to endzone all the way down the field. What I am saying is that with moderate athletes, which Georgia has GOOD athletes and you'll make this system crumble. If June ran the ball more the system would have somewhat a counter against the constant outside pressure. For instance, aligning the ends in any position from 7-9 will alow speed rushers to harass your QB's. Of course you can try and counter this with WR screens and the like, which Hawaii tried, but if you have solid tacklers that minimizes those gains tremendously. Especially if you have two OLB's that understand Zone coverage or at least adequate in man coverage. You have to run the football. I'm not attacking June Jones. He'll get you guys to 7-8 wins this year. (At least that's what I believe.) I've also stated that June will get you guys in position to hire a GREAT Head Coach after he retires/leaves in 5 years. I believe he said he would coach out his current contract. By then you guys will be in the top 25 and ready for the next step. Now back to scheme, aligning the DE's in the aforementioned positions will allow your line to decimate your LB's, the inside zone game would kill you. After establishing the run in this matter it would allow teams to play action you to death, as your LB's are beginning to cheat in certain directions so that they can actually have a chance at the ball carrier. Hello Mr. TE for ten yard catches......oh Mr. Safety is coming up to help...hit them deep. Football is a hard game strategy wise and physically. Look at Kevin Gilbride. He's been running the R&S as long as June. But he's changed and adapted his concepts to the NFL game and guess what he's wearing now? June for all of his greatness is made for the college level not because he isn't brilliant but because like some Offensive coaches are lax to do he runs ONE CONCEPT. Football is a sport at which at the top levels (college or pro...but most definitely at pro) you can't just run ONE scheme. I could get into the fact that TALENTED recruits look at the draft to see where players are being drafted from and what schemes are they being drafted from. Of course, education does play a part, which SMU has in spades, but until these recruits hear more SMU names on draft day, even in the late rounds it's going to be a hard road to climb. I came to this board because I like SMU, I'm just noticing a tendecy to see the R&S as the be all end all offensive scheme which I'm sorry it's not. I have my own opinions about the best offensive scheme, but it's just an opinion. So have at gents, I'm ready and willing to discuss the X's and O's till the cow comes home.

[Heisman7Life]

Oh yeah being from Louisiana, plenty of people bitched about Jimbo Fisher....look at the bang up job he's done at FSU......7-6? Hmmm.

[RGV Pony]

Oh yeah being from Louisiana, plenty of people bitched about Jimbo Fisher....look at the bang up job he's done at FSU......7-6? Hmmm.

That goes with the territory of being a 'big boy.' My wife is from Baton Rouge. My daughter is a soon to be LSU alum class of 2008. I've heard plenty of [deleted] about Saban, Miles, Fisher, and even Pelini when he was brought in to replace a nat'l championship DC in Will Muschamp.

Where in Louisiana are you from?

[Dr Death]

You want to talk X's and O's, fine... I'll talk X's and O's with you. I've been immersed in the Run & Shoot since the mid 1980's so I feel I've seen everything this offense has faced and heard all the detractors. Before I get into that, let me just say this - Kevin Gilbride, for those who don't know, is the offensive coordinator with the NY Giants, who just won the Super Bowl. The scheme Gilbride is using in NY is not the R&S, nor any sub-division of it.

Gilbride and Head Coach Tom Coughlin worked together in Jacksonville in 1995-96 and were reunited in NY. In Jacksonville Gilbride used some variations of the R&S when the Jags went 3 and 4 wide, this was to offset the deficient talent level that all expansion teams are dealt with. It worked, as Jacksonville reached the AFC Championship Game in 1996, their 2nd year in the league.

The Jags and Giants have never run the R&S. There are elements of it that have been adopted into the system they are running. Elements... not all of it, not even most of it... just elements. Most notable would be a WR or two would have the freedom to adjust their route based on coverage.

To suggest that Gilbride changed and adapted his concepts to the NFL game and now he's wearing a ring is absurd. Gilbride is a devout R&S guy. But it was made very clear to him in 1994 that he wouldn't be running that if he were to stay in the NFL. When he was head coach at San Diego the Chargers were a smash mouth running team. They played a lot of I formation. That team never came close to a R&S offense. The Jags were a little more willing to allow for leeway because trying to play traditional football would have showcased the weaknesses they had.

Still, they did not employ the R&S... they only used variations of it and only when they played 3 and 4 wide, about 30 % of the time.

Gilbride, as offensive coordinator of the Oilers, used the R&S scheme from 1990-1993, and the Oilers were in the playoffs every single year. Warren Moon was setting records and they averaged, as a team, 4.6 yards per carry during that stretch. Including Gary Brown rushing for 1002 yards in just 10 games in 1993 while averaging 5.1 per carry.

So... now that we have that out of the way let's address the X's and O's. You say Georgia had good athletes but their scheme was the difference, mainly by spreading their DE's out. This doesn't take a genius to figure out... Hawaii's O-line hadn't seen the kind of speed Georgia has and the Bulldogs knew where Colt was going to be every snap... (shot-gun, about 5 yards behind center)

I agree that June was out-coached in that game and here's why; prior to the game I posted on the Hawaii board that it was my belief that June would approach this game like he did as Head Coach in the NFL... which would have meant Colt would use both shot-gun as well as lining up under center. By being under center he would have thrown a curve at Georgia that they wouldn't have been prepared for. This would have allowed for draws and shovel passes, something that June used a lot in the NFL to beat blitzes.

However, I also understand why June didn't do these things... most notably, taking his team, which basically used one type of game plan... shot-gun, throw almost every down, and suddenly, in the biggest game in Hawaii history, change all that and start doing something different.

I get the reason he didn't do it. We will never know, but I would like to have the seen the 2006 Warriors in that game, with 3 of their linemen going to the NFL and bowling ball Nate Illoa at SB... super back... running back in the R&S.

The fact that June didn't change or game plan differently doesn't make him less of a coach. As stated, a sweeping change like that might have doomed them more... the key here is does he begin to implement more of this diversity into the offense now so that when he faces a Georgia-esque team he's prepared, or does he write it off and continue on as if nothing happened?

It should also be noted that what June is running now is not a true R&S offense. A true R&S does not go shot-gun the entire game... does not throw 90 % of the time... does not have the QB in the same spot every play. A true R&S has the QB moving every play so the defense never knows where he'll be. A true R&S runs the ball at least 35-45 % of the time and a true R&S has the QB under center about 75 % of the time, if not more.

When June arrived at Hawaii he started making changes to the scheme, using some of Bill Walsh's short passing game to substitute for the running game. One could say he painted himself into a corner by doing this, but it's also not very likely that June ever imagined Hawaii, coming off an 18 game losing streak when he took the reigns, playing Georgia in a Sugar Bowl.

It should also be noted that in the NFL three teams used a true R&S scheme. The Lions, Falcons and Oilers. All three made the playoffs using this scheme and the 1995 Falcons, under June Jones, become the first team in NFL history to have a QB throw for over 4000 yards, a RB run for over 1000, and three WR's catch passes for over 1000 yards. To suggest the R&S failed in the NFL is truly born of ignorance.

[The PonyGrad]

Interesting, but this guy truly has too much time on his hands.

[Nacho]

I love it when some know-nothing blowhard tries to discredit the R&S.

[mrydel]

Interesting, but this guy truly has too much time on his hands.

I think Death is kind of timeless.

[SMU 86]

I think the debate between Heisman7life, Dr Death, and Garret is actually pretty cool.

[redpony]

OK- Heisman 7, Dr.Death/Garrett 7; DD-G have the ball on the 1 yrd line with 5 seconds left in 4th qtr. Most important question- will they run the swinging gate to win the game??

GO PONIES!!!

[Heisman7Life]

It should also be noted that in the NFL three teams used a true R&S scheme. The Lions, Falcons and Oilers. All three made the playoffs using this scheme and the 1995 Falcons, under June Jones, become the first team in NFL history to have a QB throw for over 4000 yards, a RB run for over 1000, and three WR's catch passes for over 1000 yards. To suggest the R&S failed in the NFL is truly born of ignorance.

What were the records of these teams? How many teams run the R & S right now? Don't talk to me about 'every team runs concepts from the R & S' either. I'm quite familiar with the R & S also, having every single playbook since the idea firs tspread to the NFL. I also happen to have Glen Ellison's ORIGINAL BOOK on the concept, and in the true creator's words it is a concept that needs to run almost as much as it passes. Please list some games in which JJ has used some of Walsh's short game concepts, by the way nearly every offensive system uses some of the same short game concepts. Walsh's offense which is truly Paul Brown's with more diversity, has always focused on the short game. By the way Nacho, I am not trying to discredit the R & S, as Dr. Death has pointed out when June ran this system in the NFL, he used the run almost to perfection. I think if June ever became and O-Coordinator with Reggie Bush, we would see something spectacular as he fits the A slot receiver almost to a T. Look at Eric Metcalf's season with June. I also mentioned the Oilers and Lions, but both of those teams used the running game. I don't know how June is going to use Demyron or any of the other backs, but at Hawaii it became far too dependent on the pass. I am a fan of the R & S, when its being run from under center. This allows one to continuously threaten to run the ball and keeps the DE's in closer. Gilbride is a true disciple of the system, but he has applied most of the RS concepts into more of a 3-Wide offense using a TE. Why do you think it was made very clear to him that if he didn't change, that he wouldn't be in the league? It's weaknesses became to easy in the NFL to counter. Again no team runs the RS full-time. It's a WONDERFUL package at the HS and at the mid range college levels, but when it is brought against the top tier teams it isn't really sucessful. Let me make it clear Death, that I am not arguing that you know football, unlike Nacho you've made your points as concise as you can, and while we disagree on some points. The idea about it ebing under center? I agree completely on this point. I know Hawaii would have fared better in 2006. I would also go on to say that I think he should have went to these schemes versus Georgia. There was nothing to lose and allowing an enemy that has better talent to know what you're going to do is a recipe for disaster.

[gostangs]

I just think in general this discussion has under valued Georgia's talent. Next year, if Stafford stays healthy they should be the favorite to win the national chamionship. UH did not get beat by an avaerage SEC team - to the contrary the shame of the Sugar Bowl lat year is that Georgia was playing at the highest level of anyone in the country at the the end and they drew the WAC card. Yet another of thousands of reasons to do a playoff.

[Garret]

I'm sorry that I didn't respond (or even read this forum) yesterday because I had a couple of work deadlines. I don't want to bother going point by point through everything, especially since Dr. Death added a good amount to the discussion. There are just a few things I'd like to add:

Heisman7Life might be interested that I *agree* with him that Hawaii did NOT run the ball enough last season. The thing is, he seems to be judging JJ's system just based on last year...and that shows a true distortion of the system!

In 2006, JJ's offense featured two power running backs (the starter weighed about 250 and the backup was probably 320) and many of the power runs that he's somehow claiming that JJ's offense does not have. BOTH RBs were drafted by the NFL, with the backup RB from 2006 being a starting FB in the NFL all season in 2007. Ilaoa had 990 yards rushing (7.56 per carry) and would have gone well over 1000 if he didn't miss time due to an injury. Ilaoa also had 837 yards receiving from screens and shovel passes that were an excellent counter to a heavy pass rush. Against Purdue (who had a DE that was drafted by the NFL and I think he led the NCAA in sacks at the time) Hawaii used BOTH RBs, with Mauia lined up basically as a TE on that DE's side where he *crushed* that DE on play after play, teaming with a tackle that spent all of 2007 on an NFL roster (both 2006 tackles spent all of 2007 on NFL rosters, so they couldn't just switch that DE to the other side of the field).

In 2007, JJ's offense had lost BOTH RBs and the C and BOTH tackles to the NFL. However, the starting QB and 3 top WRs all returned, plus they added a speedy WR to serve as the deep threat. Hawaii did NOT have the big back that they had during so many of Hawaii's previous seasons (players like Ilaoa, Mauia, Keliikipi) that was a great blocker, power runner, and big threat on the shovel passes. Hawaii had 4 main RBs in 2007, but none of them was as smooth in the shovel passes and draws as Hawaii had over the previous years...part of that was their inexperience, part of that was because 3 of the 2006 OL was in the NFL. How many non-BCS conference schools (or even BCS-conference schools) could easily absorb the loss of 2 RBs and 3 OL to the NFL without having make adjustments in their offensive system the following year?

At SMU, it looks like they have a couple of big back candidates...such as McKinney (I'm probably spelling that wrong). I'm willing to bet that SMU runs that ball a lot more in 2008 than Hawaii did in 2007, and people like Heisman7Life will claim that was because JJ realize that his system didn't work...and that is just BS because the run/pass ratio in 2007 was NOT a typical ratio for JJ's system! Last year the OL was basically new, the RBs were all new, and the QB and WRs were the best Hawaii ever had as a group! That led Hawaii to feature the runs and shovel passes less and to go with what worked.

Everyone like Heisman7Life is focused on the Sugar Bowl. But Hawaii went 12-0 in the regular season and made it to a BCS Bowl. In 2006 Hawaii beat Purdue and Arizona State and had the ball with a chance to win on their final drives at Alabama and against Oregon State. I think that SMU fans would love to have that type of success with a "flawed" system.