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Can someone help me and explain the state of SMU Basketball?

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Postby The XtC » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:18 am

PoconoPony wrote:I agree that it takes time for any model to take shape and that patience is needed; however, I think someone should contact the UNC site and get specific feed back as to exactly why Doh was run out of Chapel Hill so soon. My only recollection at that time was that he was described as a bad bench coach. I never heard that reason further defined. Anyone know someone close to the UNC program who can authoritatively comment???? There might be clues in their answers.



Google is your friend. There is no shortage of articles and information about why Doherty went wrong at UNC. Use any search engine and you'll come up with plenty of reading material. Bade bench coach was the least of his problems.

Try some of these:

http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/102882.html

"You simply cannot have a functional basketball program, let alone a highly successful one, if the players do not want to play for the head coach, to the extent that even players getting plenty of playing time would contemplate leaving or threatening to leave.
That appears to be what the situation is here, though more details are sure to emerge in time. And when a pattern emerges that a coaching regime cannot make it through a whole season without generating significant problems and issues off-the court, the administration really has no choice. "

And:

"For, in moving so fast to do things his way, Doherty succeeded in turning a lot of people off at a fairly rapid pace--even during the first year when things on the court seemed fine.
Indeed, a key result of Doherty's moves was that more and more people familiar with the program worried that Doherty did not see himself as a steward of and servant to the program--but instead saw the program as a means to serve Matt Doherty. This is not to deny Doherty's very real love for the institution, or that he had significant support and help from some former lettermen and other "family members." It is to say that over time, numerous people close to the program detected a unnerving pattern of excessive self-regard in Doherty's actions and day-to-day handling of people
In short, the general impression that was left from the first year or two of the Doherty era was that of a CEO undertaking a nominally friendly but substantively hostile takeover of an organization."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/w ... index.html

"Doherty's three-year tenure was a divisive time for North Carolina basketball. Though his first team went 26-7 and climbed to No. 1 in the nation, and though he recruited nearly all the stars (Sean May, Raymond Felton, Rashad McCants) on last year's national title team, Doherty is remembered in Chapel Hill primarily for the squad's implosion during his final 19-16 season. That's when his alleged temper-fueled tirades became the stuff of Internet legend and caused several players and their families to express their displeasure to school administrators."


http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-119345816.html

"When you become the head man at an institution you once represented as a player and systematically go about corroding everything it stands for, you deserve to be ousted."


http://www.edbatista.com/2006/02/matt_doherty_li.html

"But in Doherty's final two seasons the team performed far below expectations, suffering its first losing season in four decades, and Doherty alienated everyone from the university athletic department to his own players. Perhaps most significantly, there were steady rumors that Doherty's aggressive coaching style masked an out-of-control anger management problem, and he had few defenders when he left Chapel Hill.

If the rumors about Doherty's profane tirades at UNC are to be believed, his inability to control his temper was a major cause of his undoing there. Admittedly, he was in a terribly difficult position, trying to live up to Dean Smith's record of success and an entire state's expectations. But instead of relieving the pressure by finding allies and motivating them to work toward the team's success, he only increased it by alienating everyone who was in a position to support him (particularly his players, several of whom had considered transferring to another school.)"


"It's not clear to me whether Doherty failed to pick up on the resistance his actions were generating at UNC, or whether he sensed those cues and thought he could safely ignore them. Ultimately, it's a difference without a distinction--his inability to integrate feedback from the environment and tailor his approach as a change agent doomed him as a new leader."



http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9659C8B63

"Matt Doherty resigned today as coach of North Carolina, ending a three-year tenure marked by inconsistent play and rocky relations with players and alumni."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9659C8B63

"His recruiting, game management and record, as well as the recent transfer of key players, have come under fire as disgruntled alumni and supporters debate his performance. "


"What is unusual is the manner in which North Carolina has forged its record, alternately thrilling and frustrating its followers. A victory over No. 2-ranked Kansas, on the way to winning the Preseason N.I.T., and regular-season victories over No. 6 Connecticut and No. 10 Duke had Doherty lobbying for an N.C.A.A. bid today as his team prepared to face Maryland on Friday in the A.C.C. quarterfinals.
But North Carolina, which was ranked as high as No. 12 early in the season, has also lost to Iona and Miami. There was a critical overtime defeat against North Carolina State and a 96-56 blowout at Maryland that was the largest margin of defeat in an A.C.C. game in the Tar Heels' history."


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-119345832.html

"Matt Doherty resigned under intense pressure Tuesday, capping a months-long saga that turned a sports institution into a public laughingstock."


http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/104715/

"Doherty's first three years were a bumpy run marked by feuds with players and a failure to lead North Carolina back to national prominence. The Tar Heels failed to reach the NCAA Tournament or win 20 games the last two seasons."


There you go, hope that helps.
Try not to choke on the Kool-Aid.
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Postby Dooby » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:34 am

Doherty will be back next year
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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Postby PonyDoh » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:39 am

LOL, that was my favorite post of the year, XTC. He was in so far over his head at Carolina, the rest of the league will never stop talking about it. It's nearly impossible to do what he did to Carolina, w/that amount of talent. In game coaching was the least of his worries, but still not good. Carolina basketball has the strongest basketball family of any school in America, bar none. He managed to tear it down in ways not previously thought possible. His tantrums were legendary, and his disregard for Dean was idiotic.

It's amazing after you read those quotes, and think about his tenure here, how much still holds true. Some people aren't CEO's, just don't have the people skills or temperament
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Postby Mexmustang » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:44 am

OK, now I'm scared...Doh's gotta go? Is his relationship with this team that poor? Or is this simply a case of winning a few more games?
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Postby Billy Joe » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:54 am

It is hard to wreck a program that was already wrecked. It is fun watching to see if Doherty can take a non-existent basketball program down even lower. Based on Doherty's history, he seems to be the guy that could achieve such an amazing feat. It is apparent a few of the players have regressed in their development and have mentally checked out for the season. I would not be surprised to see a few of the player leave after this season.
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Postby papawasamustang » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:20 pm

I don't want to pile on too much because mama told me there is always to sides to the story. Having said that here's a couple of more comments.

Posted: 7:57 AM by Anonymous
I played for Doherty when he was an assistant at Davidson and wasn't surprised in the least by what happened to him at Carolina. None of us were. Our sentiments of him were echoed in the player uprising at UNC.

He was boorish, insensitive and that national championship aura was largely diminished by his egregious lack of people skills.

We were a horrible team then and being that bad certainly made for some tense moments between the players and the coaching staff. But Doherty crossed the line of professionalism many times by belittling players on and off the court.

Cool stories about playing with Jordan could only take him so far and we were happy to see him go.

For the sake of the SMU players, I hope he's had that come-to-Jesus that Bob McKillop had at Davidson in the early 90's. Doherty played for McKillop in high school and they were much of the same mold. But Bob changed, started coaching from the heart, and now he’s greatly respected even by those guys in his doghouse back then. He earned that respect.

May Doherty’s newfound geniality be sincere.

Here's one more

I don't think that anyone is denying that Doherty was an essential factor in the 2005 championship. of course he was, because he did recruit those players. however, i think it's important to note 2 thing:

1) he was recruiting for Carolina, a school players grow up dreaming to play for. Felton and McCants both grew up Carolina fans and May didn't want to go to Indiana because he was trying to separate himself from his dad's legacy.

2) how a coach is as a recruiter and how he is as a coach are two very different things. Doherty is a charming, likeable guy. He just didnt know how to appropriately push his players in the gym. He used personal attacks to try to motivate them and it didnt work. Also, it's a lot easier to control your temper when you are sweet talking someone into playing for you than it is when emotions are running high and you're, for example, coaching a close game against Duke at home.

No one is saying Doherty hasn't matured and learned from his experience at Carolina, I think the point is just that he made mistakes when he was there and that was why he left, not because of "political" reasons. However, even if that was the case, is it really so unbelievable? Coaches get fired all the time for poor records. 8-20 at a school like Carolina is unacceptable. It absolutely tarnished the program and I was not surprised he was forced to resign.
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Postby ReedFrawg » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:35 pm

PoconoPony wrote:I was watching the Big East game last evening between UConn and DePaul. UConn probably has the best 8 in the country and DePaul was very game and competitive until UConn's 3 bench "starters" turned the tide. Announcers quoted several Big East coaches including DePaul's coach as saying it takes (SIX) 6 years to turn a program around and be competitive in the Big East. Yep, 6 years to finally get the talent to compete and be in the middle of the pack. Maybe we are too impatient and do not fully appreciate how hard the recruiting wars have become with so many programs all lookingand fighting for talent.


Maybe true in the Big East...but you should be competitive against lower level CUSA teams in 2-3 years. If not, move on to the next coach.
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Postby papawasamustang » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:14 pm

Dennis Felton was fired yesterday as Georgia's men's basketball coach one day after their 26 pt loss to Florida. They are 0-5 in conference.
He was in his 6th season.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports ... iring.html

This article sounds like what's going on here. BTW, Anthony Grant from VCU & Mike Anderson @ Mizzou are names already being thrown around for the HC @ both Georgia & Bama.
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Postby EastStang » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:15 pm

Unfortunately for Doherty, he might have been pushed into the UNC job a tad early in his development as a coach. He had a good season with ND and then the UNC bosses turned on Dean's boy, Guthridge (sp?). They had to replace him with a Carolina blue guy and at that point Doherty the incumbent coach of the year was the hot property. I think he did blow a fuse at UNC and most folks at UNC do not have warm fuzzy's about him. The question is whether he learned from his UNC mistakes or is he making them again. Most on this board were delighted with the choice of Coach Doh when he was hired to replace Tubbs, even if some weren't too happy about the circumstances surrounding Tubbs exit. He was a "name" coach. Now the "names" I hear spouted out as desired replacements are up and comers (reminds you of Tubbs and Dement). Yes, Doherty wore out his welcome at UNC arguably the top coaching job in America in 3 years. We aren't UNC. Since none of us (except Rack) has played for Doherty, we don't know whether he has changed his ways or not. I am sure Orsini is keeping tabs on the situation and may at some point need to counsel MD about behavior if that is a problem. That said, we need to start seeing some positive improvement on this team.
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Postby PonyDoh » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:33 pm

After this summer, lets revisit this thread and discuss roster turnover in 3 or 4 years time. We may have a record number of transfers, flameouts etc. Beyond that, there are more then enough stories that have leaked, to know Doh is still somewhat abusive and a hot head. He may be better then he was at Carolina, but he's still the worst kind of manager of people.
“When I first committed to SMU, I thought it would take a couple of years of building. But with these players coming in, we should make a run. We have a lot of heavy hitters. It could get real ugly for a lot of teams we play.”- Jalen Jones
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Postby LA_Mustang » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:55 pm

PonyDoh wrote:Beyond that, there are more then enough stories that have leaked, to know Doh is still somewhat abusive and a hot head. He may be better then he was at Carolina, but he's still the worst kind of manager of people.

yeah, but at least he's winning.......oh, wait......
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Postby Vitale » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:58 pm

State of SMU basketball:

We've won five straight
11 of 13
Tied for first
Winning even when we don't play particularly well (i.e. against Houston last night)
Come out and watch the Ponies stomp Rice at 2 p.m. Saturday
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Postby PonyDoh » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:07 pm

Vitale wrote:State of SMU basketball:

We've won five straight
11 of 13
Tied for first
Winning even when we don't play particularly well (i.e. against Houston last night)
Come out and watch the Ponies stomp Rice at 2 p.m. Saturday


Dude, they are girls.
“When I first committed to SMU, I thought it would take a couple of years of building. But with these players coming in, we should make a run. We have a lot of heavy hitters. It could get real ugly for a lot of teams we play.”- Jalen Jones
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Postby smupony94 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:36 pm

PonyDoh wrote:
Vitale wrote:State of SMU basketball:

We've won five straight
11 of 13
Tied for first
Winning even when we don't play particularly well (i.e. against Houston last night)
Come out and watch the Ponies stomp Rice at 2 p.m. Saturday


Dude, they are girls.


And winning
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Postby PonyDoh » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:38 pm

smupony94 wrote:
PonyDoh wrote:
Vitale wrote:State of SMU basketball:

We've won five straight
11 of 13
Tied for first
Winning even when we don't play particularly well (i.e. against Houston last night)
Come out and watch the Ponies stomp Rice at 2 p.m. Saturday


Dude, they are girls.


And winning


watching women's basketball is never winning
“When I first committed to SMU, I thought it would take a couple of years of building. But with these players coming in, we should make a run. We have a lot of heavy hitters. It could get real ugly for a lot of teams we play.”- Jalen Jones
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