Watching TCU on CBS CS This Evening, and Noticing What MEN

[rich59]

Stallion, I agree. As long as Patterson stays there and they continue to recruit as well as they have in the past and possibly even better this year, they are going to be hard to catch. They are sitting where SMU should be.

[Deep Purple]

Patience and support. Don't forget how long it has taken TCU to get to this point. From one of the worst programs in football through the 70's and 80's (the same time SMU was winning national championships) to mild success with Wacker and Franchione.

This is an interesting bit of retro-history. Apart from the fact that SMU success during the 70's and 80's was marshaled off of massive cheating, I'm surprised learn that this was "the same time SMU was winning national championships." Wow. I was completely unaware of that. So exactly how many national championships did SMU win during that period?

[Pony Fan]

None to be exact, but tcu was cheating just as bad as we were and getting no return on their investment, Actually, I am close to some big tcu backers and they know we are going to get better, and eventually catch them, and the good fans hope we do. It will be great the next time there is a new conference shake up and both of us end up in a BCS league. It won't take us as long as it did them to get better since we are now going to honestly try to compete vs. the crap we have been wallowing around in for 20 years with a "governor" on our gas pedal.

[PonyKai]

Actually we were awarded a "national championship" in '81 and '82 by a couple of non-AP sources. Don't care if they're obscure, either.

[mathman]

Really funny to see a TCU fan being all righteous about their conduct back in the day. I think everyone knows a lot of cheating was going on by almost everyone. We were just STUPID. And yes, if I remember correctly, we were awarded a couple of NC's by some organizations other than AP.

[Deep Purple]

Really funny to see a TCU fan being all righteous about their conduct back in the day. I think everyone knows a lot of cheating was going on by almost everyone. We were just STUPID.

Where did I get righteous about TCU's behavior back in the day? Yes, we were cheating just as badly as SMU -- as almost everyone was. And yes, we got far less return on our cheating then SMU did. No question. You cheated much more effectively than we did. We simply threw a lot of our dishonest dollars away. You at least got a nice return on yours.

But two big differences: 1) We don't brag on those nefarious days, as many SMU fans continue to do; 2) TCU didn't repeatedly snub the rules after getting caught, like SMU did. You got the DP because you were caught cheating yet again while on probation for previous cheating.

I don't think you'll find any TCU fan who believes that SMU deserved the DP or that the NCAA dealt with you justly. It was a total sham and SMU got unfairly hosed. But I think you'll find plenty of Frog fans who agree with you that SMU behaved stupidly.

And yes, if I remember correctly, we were awarded a couple of NC's by some organizations other than AP.

Good. Enjoy that NC awarded to you by the Gulf Coast Youth Coaches Association.

[rich59]

It wasn't stupid at SMU to continue to provide illegal benefits to players who were already enrolled and contributing to the program after the probation in 1985. It would have been stupid and immoral to go back on commitments made to those players. The stupidity was, in 1986, to go in with our hands up, allow the faculty to take over and rely on the mercy of the NCAA. We should have stonewalled it one more time, taken the ensuing probation and loss of scholarships and tried to run a clean program,( if there is such a thing) after the players recruited in 1985 were gone. Having said that, I have nothing but respect for the program at TCU. They made a good choice when they hired Franchione and possibly an even better choice when they retained Patterson. A close friend of mine was involved in that hire. It is possible that the TCU program is clean, relatively, and it is a good example for SMU. Without the success at TCU as an example, many SMU people might be inclined to say calf rope. It can be done.

[smuuth]

This past recruiting class, TCU signed some from the "top 100" list but this has not been the case in recent years. Patterson has done an excellent recruiting job outside the metroplex, particularly around east Texas and Houston. He is signing the many QB's and running backs who are good athletes in high school but don't make the "top 100" list and don't project to those positions at the top D1 schools. They come to TCU, redshirt and gain 30 to 50 pounds and by the 2nd or 3rd year with patience and hard work, you have a Tommy Blake, Stephen Hodge or Jason Phillips. I believe either 8 or 9 of their defensive starters last year (nations top defense) were former QB's in high school. The state of Texas is loaded with guys like this. I think you could be in a bcs bowl on a regular basis if you just sign 25 really good players that may only be say 150 - 250 as far as recruiting rankings go. It sure helps if you can get one of the top QB's and some good lineman though.

[smuuth]

I want SMU, TCU and Rice to succeed and they all seem to have the coaches who are doing the job. We need to pull for each other instead of trash talking. Leave that for the masses at the state schools. We should be about quality not quantity.

[EastStang]

Hate to disagree with you. But an illegal deal, is still illegal. Stonewalling exacerbated our penalty and led to the death penalty. Had we apologized and taken steps to stop it, we would never have had the Methodist takeover of the Board of Trustees and the subsequent Kenneth Pye academic reformation rules and we would have lost a few scholarships and bowl opportunities for awhile. For those players on the 1985 "payroll" we could have told them, look the payroll has to stop, you can leave and sit out a year or you can play for just your great education and potential life after football that an SMU degree gives you. (Translation, wait till you leave SMU, then we'll get you a job at an inflated salary with one of our cronies to make you whole).

[PonyKai]

For those players on the 1985 "payroll" we could have told them, look the payroll has to stop, you can leave and sit out a year or you can play for just your great education and potential life after football that an SMU degree gives you. (Translation, wait till you leave SMU, then we'll get you a job at an inflated salary with one of our cronies to make you whole).

I've always wondered why we didn't just do that.

[rich59]

You make good points but if we had reneged on promises to young men( and it wasn't illegal in terms of a felony or even a misdemeanor), and all the other schools were doing it to at least some extent, someone would have gone to the media or NCAA and tattled and then we would have wound up in the same fix with all the bad things that you outlined happening. Some of the players could have made it with no extra benefits but ones who may have married and perhaps with children would have been in dire straits.

[Stallion]

Hey Geuises-
We did stonewall "one last time". That's when Dale Hansen got the goods on us. The envelope with our assistant's initials on it showing payments were still making payments AFTER the most recent probation. The BALLGAME was OVER!!!! That was SMU's 3rd Strike under a new NCAA Rule put in place ESPECIALLY for SMU. You guys realize that the NCAA Death Penalty was put in place BECAUSE of SMU. Its was the SMU Death Penalty BEFORE we even got the Death Penalty. I really have a problem with somebody who can come on here and claim SMU should have continued lying to the NCAA after David Stanley for the 6th time in about 12 years. If that's how you feel-Please stay away from the program.

As for the aftermath of the Death Penalty. Everybody knows I think we torpedoed the program with Pye. The "Pye Penalty" was much worse than the Death Penalty to the Football Team. But come on at some point-say the Day of Govenor Clement's Inaguration-SMU had to come clean. After all-sttonewalling the NCAA one last time was all about getting Bill Clements reelected anyway. Congratulations Goal accomplished. That's really what happened-no body wants to talk about it-but that is the story behind the story.

[smuuth]

There should be a death penalty for illegal payments to athletes.......but it should be the rich alumni who provided the funds that receives the lethal injection! A few selfish bigshots tarnished the reputation of this great university for decades. It is going to take a special group to turn it around. Going on message boards saying everyone does it just perpetuates the perception that we still "don't get it". A full scholarship at SMU costs between $250,000 to $350,000 over five years when you factor in summer school costs and inflation and maybe a redshirt season. I think our student-athletes get more bang for the buck than those at say ut or A&M. $300,000 compared to $100,000 plus and look at those graduation rates! We don't need to cheat. Cheating is for those who are too lazy to work. There are no shortcuts to success. We will win and it will be special because we earned it!

[rich59]

Oh well, everyone has an opinion and they are worth exactly what is paid for them. I no longer am close to the program, either geographically or with monetary or other support. However, I know several people of my vintage who share my opinion about how the problem was handled and they have given many thousands to the programs and continue to do so. To me it would be shortsighted to wish they would stand down with their support because their opinions don't coincide with some others. Hubris is a flaw regardless who displays it. One of those "selfish big shots" made the statement afterwards that '" I never did anything they did not want me to do" and that was a true statement.