Here's a Miracle Worker

[Uncle Morty]

Originally posted by Stallion:
I shouldn't even bother to respond to the teaming masses that want to hire a coach they had never heard of just because he's got a 4 game winning streak-BUT I couldn't resist because once again there is some VERY inaccurate information being assumed here. Air Force has its own JUNIOR COLLEGE called the Air Force Prep Academy and 9 members of the squad(3/4th?) were NOT recruited as freshmen out of High School but went to Prep School. Many of you may have remembered the article discussed on this forum last fall where it discussed the fact that the Air Force Football team actually signs 75-100 players per year in FB and places the rest in this Prep School. I can't remember the exact percentage but over 1/2 of the Air Force squad went to this Prep Academy. This is why Air Force is so much more competitive than Army or Navy. Obviously, the BB program is using the unlimited scholarships and the Prep school to improve its team BUT the situation is nothing like SMU at all. Let's wait a little longer than 4 games to annoit him as the next Bobby Knight.

Ah, the king of Misinformation strikes again. Stallion, do you ever check the facts before you type? Its hard to tell where to even start with this load of garbage.

Ok, first, Air Force isnt doing better than the other service academies because of their prep school. ALL the academies have prep schools. Secondly, they are NOT junior colleges, they're prep schools. The programs last less than a year, and the classes arent for college credit. After leaving the prep school, a person would still be considered a college freshman, regardless of whether they then went to the academy, or anywhere else. These schools exist for one purpose, to train potential cadets. To enter one, you have to already be in the military, either on active duty, or in the Reserves. Civilian selectees to the Air Force prep school are placed on active duty as reserve airmen.

To say that the players who went to the prep school werent recruited out of high school is ludicrous. The only way to be considered for the Prep school is to apply to the academy first, and the Air Force prep school is on the USAFA campus. If they didnt enter straight from high school, its because they entered the Military first.

Most importantly, the service academies dont have unlimited scholarships. They dont give any athletic scholarships at all. Every cadet recieves the same training and stipend in exchange for his commitment to military service after graduation. No one needs to play a sport in order to keep their scholarship or stay in school. Most would be better off to NOT play, they could then use the travel and practice time to hit the books,or recover from the schools mandatory physical training. Thats why Air Force's team is heavy on Freshmen, too many decide they cant handle the academic load and pilot training and play sports at the same time, so many of the older players give it up. The only thing you got right in that whole post was to say that Air Force is a totally different situation from SMU. Its true, they dont even compare, the cadets actually have to do a bit of hard work.

Besides, havent you been telling us for weeks now that its Quality that matters, not quantity?
Yes, I do believe that was you, something about our football recruiting rankings being higher than TCU's for the last few years. I could look up the exact posts and repaste them here, if you like. Its no trouble, I'd be glad to do it, even if it took me "all day and all night."

The real kicker in all of this is that the 3 best players at Air Force this year are all Texas kids, and SMU would never have considered recruiting any of them. Just not good enough. If you dont believe me, perhaps we could get Stallion to dig deep into his little internet database and tell us how many stars and D-1 offfers Welch, Hood and Keller had? Tell us all how many Top-100 lists they were on, big boy. This should be fun. After he's done Stallion can take a nice long rest, I know it must get tiring shoveling this giant load of horsecrap all day long, every day.

[Sam I Am]

Stallion, commitment means $$$$. Who's got the money to pay for SMU's needs? Despite the high tuition costs, SMU is apparently not a revenue rich school. Then there are some faculty who would resent spending money on the athletic program even if the school had it to spare. I am all in favor of a level playing field. Who has got the funds to make it so? :hmm:

[Stallion]

The facts are these-Air Force is not restricted as every other NCAA team other than the Academies by NCAA scholarship limitations. According to their own press releases they have added 44 athletes to their program in a 4 year period-avg 11 per year. SMU adds 3-4 per year. The Air Force Prep Academy allows them to groom their candidates with an extra year of eligibility-therefore allowing their recruits to mature an extra year. The Prep School plays a full 25 game season. Almost 3/4th of their players on this years squad are graduates of the Air Force Prep School. Their coach had a lifetime 29-55 record at the Air Force coming into this year and the VAST majority of victories have come among a collection of teams with RPIs above 200th in the country that most on this board would not even recognize as a Division 1A team. And yet many on here had annoited this guy as Bobby Knight because of a few nice victories. There are almost 300 Division 1A programs and its pretty damn easy for one of you to point out a coach who is having a nice year. The relevant argument is what Athletic Model gives SMU the most reasonable, fair and legitimate chance to build a long lasting enduring chance at success. Has the Air Force Academy EVER been to the NCAA Tourney? You are simply arguing with yourself about whether this particular coach out of 300 Division 1A schools has done of good job or whether it is possible that Cinderella's slipper fits just right in a particular year. BTW their RPI is over 70 so unless they win it all they are not likely to go to the tourament this year. SMU has 2 victories better than the best victory by Air Force. SMU likely would have close to the same number of victories this year if they played Air Force's schedule this year. Go ahead and beat yourself up-I'm going to concentrate on which Athletic Model gives us the best chance to compete and the Air Force Model is about as irrelevant an example as you can find. Oh and BTW the consensus of recruiting evaluations of the last 5 years of recruiting between SMU would give TCU a 4-0-1 recruiting finsh over the last few years unless you want to compare hollow victories like comparing a 25 man class with a 16 man class. For example, last year while Rivals game SMU a .05 per recruit advantage, a near statistical dead heat, the Insiders ratings were not even close giving TCU's class a much higher rating. I think I'm giving SMU the benefit of the doubt by calling the 2003 class a tie. This year TCU's JUCOs also give them a substantial lead according to the recruiting services. If you want to play that game then SMU will be lucky to finish in the top 85-90 in this year's small class.

<small>[ 01-27-2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Stallion ]</small>

[DickerJames]

I'm not touting the "Air Force Model", I want the Air Force coach. They went 25 years without a WINNING season, so I don't think their prep school pipeline advantage flys. OldPony says he went to a game there when we were conference mates, and there were about 500 fans and no commitment to basketball. More proof that if it can be done there, it certainly can be done here. Our current coach and team can't beat La Tech at home, do you honestly believe they could reel off 4 strait conference victories against Colorado State, New Mexico, BYU and Utah with a combined score of 269-200. I'm not trying to annoint the man John Wooden or say Air Force is going to the Tournament this year, but the fact remains, he is performing a miracle against all odds.

[Waz]

A simple point of clarification for my well informed friend Stallion; Army, Navy, and Air Force have PREP schools, so that isn't why Air Force has had a more competitive program than the other Academies. Reggie Minton was the coach at Air Force for years. Well respected, great guy, kids graduated, but he didn't win with the same scenario that the new coach has. Moving on,I wonder if it would be ok with our admissions people if we recruited prep school kids? The kids that go to the Academy Preps are in no way non or partial qualifiers. They would probably be in the upper quartile of our applicants. The Academies do not allow red shirts either without a petition, which is oft times refused, even for medical reasons. Another Stallionian half truth exposed.

[Uncle Morty]

Stallion, you’re really starting to worry me. I cant tell if you are stupid, lazy, confused, or just some kind of pathological liar, but its obvious you’re still trying to play expert about a situation that you dont really grasp. I’m not arguing with myself about anything. I made a statement that I will repeat for you: What the coach at USAFA is pulling off this year is a miracle. Perhaps it will turn out to be just a one year event, but even so that doesn’t make it any less impressive. Considering that most of their key players are underclassmen, I’d say that they have a decent chance to be good again next year. Once again its hard to pick where to start with your crap, its piled so high.

The service academies don’t worry about NCAA scholarship limits, because they don’t give any athletic scholarships. Every cadet receives the same stipend, and their participation in athletics is not a factor. They don’t have unlimited scholarships, they have a pool of walk-ons about the same size as any small, private university. Going to the prep school doesn’t give their kids an extra year of eligibility. They have the same 5 years to play 4 seasons that any athletes have anywhere else. Players that don’t go to the prep school have less than that, they get four years, period. The service academies don’t redshirt anyone, they have a JV team and if you try out but don’t make the varsity, you play JV. They don’t redshirt anyone, because they don’t want any 5th year seniors. The logic is simple, if you havent graduated after 4 years, you don’t need to be wasting your time playing sports, you need to concentrate on academics and training. Its possible to get a medical redshirt, but even that is extremely rare, because most players that suffer a serious injury have to leave the academy. Again, the logic is simple, the academy exists to train pilots and officers, if you cant pass the pilots physical or participate in the training, you’re in the wrong place. Its harsh, but it happened to one of my best friends. He separated his shoulder in Notre Dame game, and wound up having to leave the academy. He finished college and his football career at Tulsa.

So, Air Force gets about 11 guys a year to try out for basketball? How many walk-ons tryout for most major programs every year? 10-12, probably? The thing you must remember though is that of those 11, 5 will probably never play a minute of varsity basketball, and 8 will quit before their senior year. Check the air force varsity roster if you want, right now they have 3 seniors, 2 juniors, and 7 freshmen. The rest of the 44 guys you mentioned, all non-scholarship players, must have decided that it was too hard to balance school, pilot training, and sports. As time goes by they realize that their sport takes up time needed for other things, and its not worth risking an injury that could end their military career. They don’t have the financial incentive that players at all other D-1 schools have to hang onto their scholarships, but they have plenty of incentives to walk away and leave competitive sports behind.

This wasn’t about comparing Air Force to SMU, until you made it into that. But if you really want to compare their schedules look again, SMU has lost to 3 teams worse than anyone the Falcons have lost to. Wins over Cal, CSU, BYU, New Mexico and Utah might not be quite as good as beating Purdue, but Air Force hasn’t lost to San Diego or been blown out by Rice, either. I don’t know where you got that RPI number, but the Sagarin rankings have the Falcons at #25, and since they have already beaten everyone in their conference who was supposed to be a legitimate NCAA contender, its possible that they could win their conference and make the big dance. Its certainly not as farfetched as you are trying to pretend.

I’m not going to argue about athletic models with you, because frankly I’m not convinced that you actually know much about them. Its painfully obvious that you didn’t know anything about the military academies, but that didn’t stop you from pretending that you did. That sort of makes everything you say on other subjects somewhat suspect. I wouldn’t suggest that SMU or anyone else try to copy the academies model, they are unique situations that could not possibly work elsewhere. For all the disadvantages that you whine and cry about, nothing compares to what the service academies have to overcome. That’s why its so remarkable when they have success in any athletic endeavour, and that’s why someone started this thread to salute them.

Finally, I mentioned TCU and recruiting in the last post to demonstrate the contradictions in your own statements. I don’t think you realize it, but you did the exact same thing again. Nice going

[Stallion]

....and there is an investigative report in the Colorado Springs Gazette by Dan Wolken dated August 25th 2003-posted on this board, the WAC board and the MWC board several times that proves exactly what I'm saying. It has lead to an investigation by the U.S. General Accounting Office. During the last 20 years 3/4th of the students of the prep schools have been RECRUITED ATHLETES as opposed to enlisted personnel. It is nothing more than a minior league pipeline to the Air Force Academy's athletic programs. BOY I BET YOU FEEL STUPID! This has been discussed thoroughly on all of those boards before. You are arguing with yourself about whether this coach has done a good job this year. Your argument is akin to picking from the entire field of 3-year old racehorses and when you win the Kentucky Derby proclaiming I told you so. You only get to hire ONE COACH to coach ONE TEAM and you don't get to pick that guy in the middle of the season. Arguably Dement performed the same type of miracle by taking a team from scratch which hadn't fielded a Division 1A prgram to a conference championship in 5 years at his prior job. Miracle Workers have failed at SMU.

<small>[ 01-28-2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Stallion ]</small>

[Uncle Morty]

Once, just once, you should try paying attention to someone other than the little voices inside your head. I havent said anything about hiring a new coach or firing the one we have. I've said that in this particular year the Air Force coach is doing something really impressive. I've also corrected your blatant false claims regarding the service academies. Sorry that this has been such a painful moment for you, but consider it a learning experience.

[Uncle Morty]

Originally posted by Stallion:
....and there is an investigative report in the Colorado Springs Gazette by Dan Wolken dated August 25th 2003-posted on this board, the WAC board and the MWC board several times that proves exactly what I'm saying. It has lead to an investigation by the U.S. General Accounting Office. During the last 20 years 3/4th of the students of the prep schools have been RECRUITED ATHLETES as opposed to enlisted personnel. It is nothing more than a minior league pipeline to the Air Force Academy's athletic programs. BOY I BET YOU FEEL STUPID! This has been discussed thoroughly on all of those boards before. You are arguing with yourself about whether this coach has done a good job this year. Your argument is akin to picking from the entire field of 3-year old racehorses and when you win the Kentucky Derby proclaiming I told you so. You only get to hire ONE COACH to coach ONE TEAM and you don't get to pick that guy in the middle of the season. Arguably Dement performed the same type of miracle by taking a team from scratch which hadn't fielded a Division 1A prgram to a conference championship in 5 years at his prior job. Miracle Workers have failed at SMU.

How many times did you edit this post? This is the 3rd version I've seen and now I'm afraid I need to respond again. I'm copying the latest version into my post, so it doesnt change again whenever I turn my back.

You see, last night I found and read the article you referenced above. Rather than proving exactly what you are saying, it pretty clearly shows that much of what you are saying is a gross misrepresentation, and in some cases a blatant lie. For example:

Stallion says: "During the last 20 years 3/4th of the students of the prep schools have been RECRUITED ATHLETES"

What the article actually says: "About 42 percent of the prep school’s students during the past 20 years were recruited athletes"

Both of those are direct quotes, cut and pasted. 42% is probably a little higher than most people would expect, but it isnt exactly the same thing as 75%, is it? While much of the article is critical of the academy, and alleges special treatment for athletes, and the autthor seems to be slanting his writing to make it all seem as insidious as he can, not even he makes the wild claims that you do. Here are some of the numbers from the article. 64% of athletes in the prep school matriculate to the academy, while 80% of non-athletes recieve appointments, so non-athletes actually have a slightly better chance of reaching the academy. Class size is 240 people, so if 42% are athletes, that means there are 100 athletes, 64 of whom will make it into the academy, and 112 of of the 140 non-athletes will make it in. So, of the 176 prep students who progress to the academy, only 36%, slightly over 1/3rd, are going to try out for varsity athletic teams. I've already mentioned the rate of attrition once they reach the academy, and the fact that none of them are on athletic based scholarships, so I wont go through that again. But 36% hardly indicates that the preps schools only function is as a minor league athletic pipeline, as you allege.

So, what happened? You figured no one would actually read the article, and just accept your numbers at face value? Because you've been tweaking the numbers for years and so far almost everyone swallows them without ever looking? Sorry bud. Before I wondered if you were stupid or lazy, but now I'm leaning more towards pathological liar, because this was an obvious attempt at deception.

Anyway, the answer is No, I dont feel stupid. I feel sad and a little bit of pity for a person like you, but other than that I feel somewhat vindicated by your very helpful article, most of it confirms the things I said. Here's a tip for the future, and I hope it serves you well: If you have to tell a lie to try and prove your point, chances are your point was wrong to begin with. Remember that one.

[Stallion]

13 of the 22 starters on that year's Air Force Football Team were Prep School graduates; 9 out of this years BB team are Prep School graduates. 54 out of the 57 athletes on the Prep team that year were recruited by Fisher Deberry. "From 1983 to 2002, recruited athletes outnumbered enlisted personnel almost 3-1." Stop being a [deleted] by counting WOMAN to make your point. It is CLEAR to everybody but you exactly what is going on.

[Uncle Morty]

Originally posted by Stallion:
13 of the 22 starters on that year's Air Force Football Team were Prep School graduates; 9 out of this years BB team are Prep School graduates. 54 out of the 57 athletes on the Prep team that year were recruited by Fisher Deberry. "From 1983 to 2002, recruited athletes outnumbered enlisted personnel almost 3-1." Stop being a [deleted] by counting WOMAN to make your point. It is CLEAR to everybody but you exactly what is going on.

Why should I stop counting women? The female cadets are students and sometimes athletes, just like the men. Even without including the female population, I'm not sure that the numbers would be much different, because the last time I heard concrete numbers the Air academy was 85% male and only 15% female. This may have changed recently, but the difference is neglible. The article you referenced made no distinction between male and female athletes and students, so if you want me to you'll have to provide a different set of numbers. Since its obvious you dont have even a foggy notion what those numbers would be, I wont hold my breathe.

The quote concerning the ratio of athletes to enlisted personnel is a comparison of the numbers of recruited athletes vs. students who came from the Air Force enlisted ranks. It leaves out students who were neither, ordinary cadets that came from high school, apparently a good sized number which you are trying to pretend dont exist. If anyone would like to read the entire article, I'll be happy to provide a link.

I saw the line about Fisher Deberry recruiting most of the players on the prep school team. If you had also previously read that, why have you been trying to claim that those players werent recruited straight out of high school, when the article clearly says they were?

If you want to continue embarrassing yourself, I suppose thats your right, but dont expect me not to shoot down your stupidity whenever it comes up.

[DickerJames]

They won at Utah today 59-57 which gives them a 19-4 record, 9-1 in conference. Some on this board have complained about teams that don't run as being boring. Loosing is whats booring to me.