How many games will it take for you?

[PonyDoh]

PonyDoh - It is year 5. Even writing of years 1-2 you can say now it is Year 3. Either way, results are warranted at this point. I want Doherty and SMU to succeed. 5 more wins this year makes 19 and then there has to be minimum 1 if not 2 conf tourney wins. NIT or not, what matters. If the team can end with 20-21 total wins, thats then good enough.

I have no problem w/that number, nor was I really debating this being year 3 vs 5. My point is that any AD or admin who allows a new coach to napalm a roster, isn't asking for wins now. There were several moves that both coach and ad knew would cost the program wins in the first two years, but were deemed necessary. I'm not defending those years, just saying that the fans were the ones w/the expectations. The rotating staff, head coach and AD were busy slashing and burning. In theory, no big deal IF & when you come out the other side, you're a vastly improved program. As of now, we're supposed to be rebuilt, and we look roughly the same. Anyway, I think evidence suggests our expectation level was considerably higher then the higher-ups

So after Doh squeezed 14 wins out of the "garbage" he inherited, did he and the administration really expect to go downhill in years 2 & 3? I guess having a little success with his inherited players and giving fans a little hope was the worst thing Doh ever did...

Both he and the admin expected to go downhill in year 2 dramatically, but expected to improve incrementally in year 3, much like we did this year. As Doh said earlier this year, he's about a year behind where he thought he'd be. I'm having a hard time believing, that people expected much more after napalm was dropped all over the program. The bigger question is one for Orsini. Why was ANY new coach allowed to treat SMU hoops like a complete and total rebuild? To be honest, we hadn't been truly good in forever, but we weren't bad to the point of slash & burning. I understand why any new coach, not being held to Ws early, would prefer to gut a roster. They ALL want that option, but where was the programs trustee(s) to say it wasn't necessary? Where was an experienced administrator when we needed one, to step up and say you'll lose an already tiny, weak sauce fan base, if they see their own blood for too long? They expected all of this, to an extent, but to those casual fans, not watching closely or just hearing media day soundbytes, these struggles seem out of left field. This entire process/program lacks pr savvy

[originaloverthehilltop1]

Better. Thank you.

What happens to this board when next year we reach a record that merits consideration for postseason play?

there will be a brief meeting of the we-did-not-want-to-fire-him-anyway committee.

[EastStang]

What was slashed and burned in years one and two? I don't recall a big exodus of players. A couple of marginal players, yes and Hopkins brothers' graduations, yes. Bamba Fall, Pearson, Ike O, Wittingham and Killen were still here for example. If on the other hand you are saying that we started a younger line-up and kept former players on the bench, then I'd have to check the stats. But it seems to me like the burn down didn't occur until year 2 or 3 after Doh had his huge class of seven players.

[redpony]

Doh could go almost undefeated next year and still struggle to get to .500 for his tenure here. He needs to go. No one forced him to napalm this program and start over. He did that on his own. He needs to accept the responsibility of his actions. The doh-doh bird needs to become extinct at S.M.U.

GO PONIES!!!

[PonyDoh]

What was slashed and burned in years one and two? I don't recall a big exodus of players. A couple of marginal players, yes and Hopkins brothers' graduations, yes. Bamba Fall, Pearson, Ike O, Wittingham and Killen were still here for example. If on the other hand you are saying that we started a younger line-up and kept former players on the bench, then I'd have to check the stats. But it seems to me like the burn down didn't occur until year 2 or 3 after Doh had his huge class of seven players.

We intentionally went younger, and Willingham didn't use up his eligibility here. Slash & burn is strong, my bad. It was more like subtle roster decisions that could have avoided 9 win seasons, and made us more competitive during the rebuild. Small moves to get more wins, as to not alienate a starving fan base.

The cupboard was incredibly bare, and we reloaded w/a very marginal class, and that's being nice. A class that ended larger then they originally wanted, but they had traction. It rated well, got everyone excited, even bought a few years w/the built in youth excuse. Papa Dia & Nyakundi will end up being the only contributors, and this is Papa's senior year. Sorta sad. Nyakundi, a solid contributor whose real gift is shooting, needed a redshirt cause his conditioning wasn't right? Malone was a slack on D, but now we play almost exclusively zone? LOL. Probably could have used s a 6'8 kid w/wingspan in the zone. He had some offensive skills for the modified princeton look as well.

I've never seen a program have so little care for spacing, year to year.

[Stallion]

Guess you weren't around for the free punch, cookies and balloons being passed around at the Mustang Club Rally when that "Top 25 Class" was signed. I think I remember at least one poster stating that ranking was ridiculous despite the well orchestrated PR Campaign by the Sports Information Directors citation to a patently deceptive and inaccurate portrayal of that Class.

[MustangIcon]

The 2007 class had some highly recruited players and appeared very desireable. It hasn't panned out and that falls on the staff. I also think that had they didn't have the opportunity to bring in any JUCOs or transfers, due to academic restrictions at the time, or they would have.

A couple of facts about the class at the time we signed them:
- 6 of the 7 players rated as 3 stars by rivals
- Papa Dia chose SMU over offers from OU and Louisville and some publications had him rated as a top 100 recruit NATIONALLY
- Ryan Harp rated as a top 15 player in the state of Texas and had some quality offers
- Alex Malone was a top 20 player in the state of Texas
- TK was a 7 footer with a couple mid major offers
- Nyakundi and Rhodes both 3 star guys
- Walker was the obscure pickup with little recruitment whom Doh supposedly fell in love with while scouting Dia

[MustangIcon]

Outcomes:

Dia- SUCCESS: Beast as a frosh, awful soph slump, All-Conference as a Junior

Harp- FAILURE: I won't pile on with specifics since this is everyone's favorite whipping boy

Malone- RUNOFF: After 8ppg as a frosh, got burried as a soph for poor D, effort, and generally falling out of favor with Doh

TK- WHATEVER: 7 footers that get only mid major interest are always projects, otherwise they'd get high major interest. You take a gamble on projects and often they don't pan out. Doh kept him around though and we now have Vilde, another Lee Academy product. TK's recruitment, and continued commitment by the SMU staff to keep him, could have played a role in Vilde (just speculating).

Nuk- SUCCESS: Has developed into a nice player. Notice that the turning point in SMU's season last year coincided with Nuk's increased health/minutes. Still 2 seasons left.

Bennie- RUNOFF: Never really got much time on the floor and was gone before we knew it.

Walker- WHATEVER: Has been yanked in and out of the rotation in his time at SMU. His tenure thus far would make him best described as "bench depth", which may have been what would be expected from the kid, but the staff sure did talk him up a lot.

[moodymadmen]

Off all the players Doh has brought in, how many would be declared an undisputed success? 2? 3? Don't all of you McCoy haters now try to label him a success in order to boost Doh's success rate! Someone should do the math, the percentage would be shockingly low...

[MustangIcon]

Off all the players Doh has brought in, how many would be declared an undisputed success? 2? 3?

You cannot come close to properly answering this question until the players Doherty has recruited have either: 1.) completed their eligibility, or at very least have only 1 year left; or 2.) are no longer in the program.

6 players from the 2007 class can be judged now (Nuk has 2 seasons left). Transfers DWill and Faye. Otis and McCoy (Haynes still has 2 seasons left). So we can currently judge 10 players.

Derek Williams- Success
Mo Faye- Success
Dia- Success

Those are the only 3 undisputed successes out of 10 that can currently be judged. I think Nyakundi and Haynes will go down as successes, but you can't make that call while they still have 2 years to go.

[PonyDoh]

Guess you weren't around for the free punch, cookies and balloons being passed around at the Mustang Club Rally when that "Top 25 Class" was signed. I think I remember at least one poster stating that ranking was ridiculous despite the well orchestrated PR Campaign by the Sports Information Directors citation to a patently deceptive and inaccurate portrayal of that Class.

You know football recruiting. Is a 25 person class chock w/3 stars, and a few 4 stars, better then a 12 man class w/only 4 & 5 star kids? The SID used Clark Francis & hoopscoop as their Top 25 source. Francis weighs classes according to recruit numbers, as opposed to impact. Anyone w/a 7 man class is going to rate Top 40 or so by Francis' methodology. He's a hack, and the same guy that started ranking 6th grades etc.

SMU hasn't had a basketball class close to the top 25 since Sasser/Willie D/Elsey etc.

[PonyDoh]

The 2007 class had some highly recruited players and appeared very desireable. It hasn't panned out and that falls on the staff. I also think that had they didn't have the opportunity to bring in any JUCOs or transfers, due to academic restrictions at the time, or they would have.

A couple of facts about the class at the time we signed them:
- 6 of the 7 players rated as 3 stars by rivals
- Papa Dia chose SMU over offers from OU and Louisville and some publications had him rated as a top 100 recruit NATIONALLY
- Ryan Harp rated as a top 15 player in the state of Texas and had some quality offers
- Alex Malone was a top 20 player in the state of Texas
- TK was a 7 footer with a couple mid major offers
- Nyakundi and Rhodes both 3 star guys
- Walker was the obscure pickup with little recruitment whom Doh supposedly fell in love with while scouting Dia

I have a hard time w/the Malone deal, now that we've switched to mostly zone. Kid was shown the door bc he couldn't guard anyone, but had some real potential offensively. He had a very good frosh year and then gone. He's a kid that we could have used last year. Another example of trading out wins in the now, for a pipedream later.

FWIW, Vilde and TK have nothing to do w/one another. Lutz placed Vilde at Lee, he wasn't recruited out of Lee. Ricmonds was a Mustang before he arrived in Maine. The only crossover would be that Lutz respected the Lee guys enough to get Vilde qualified, and thought they'd protect our recruit, after having dealt w/them over TK.

[Stallion]

Well we agree on the Top 25 Class designation was a fraud from Day 1. I said it was a fraud before the Parade. Not sure what a Rivals 3 Star in Basketball means anyway-its so messed up and inconsistent-kinda of like the ridiculous grade inflation that Rivals has begun to give out in Football in the last 1-2 years. If everyone gets a ribbon it doesn't mean a thing.

[ponyboy]

Fraud is too strong a word. Your kneejerk hatred of the marketing types is curious. What harm is there in a little hype? Use your personal filters and move on.

[RE Tycoon]

Derek Williams- Success
Mo Faye- Success
Dia- Success

Those are the only 3 undisputed successes out of 10 that can currently be judged. I think Nyakundi and Haynes will go down as successes, but you can't make that call while they still have 2 years to go.

Depends on your definition of success. My definition is contributing on, or leading a team to, the NCAA tournament. So while some of the guys you mentioned had good "stats" while they were here, I wouldn't consider any of them being a success. Some chick has to be the best looking of all the uglies, and likewise someone had to score points, rebound, dish, etc. on one of the worst teams in the country.