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Lunatics Running the Asylum

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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby Samurai Stang » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:24 pm

ponyte wrote:Where is the balance in this process? If these two get in, then I will scream as loud as many others to fire Turner as it isn't fair to many kids to do the work and perform in the classroom only to be bypassed because they can't play football.


You seem to be advocating a model that holds athlete admissions to the same standard as the general student body. I believe that has been done, and it resulted in a football program that barely remained division one.

Do you propose that SMU impose Ivy League standards? Or use the same standards as Rice and Tulane? I am curious as to your beliefs on this matter.
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby ponydawg » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:29 pm

Samurai Stang wrote:
ponyte wrote:Where is the balance in this process? If these two get in, then I will scream as loud as many others to fire Turner as it isn't fair to many kids to do the work and perform in the classroom only to be bypassed because they can't play football.


You seem to be advocating a model that holds athlete admissions to the same standard as the general student body. I believe that has been done, and it resulted in a football program that barely remained division one.

Do you propose that SMU impose Ivy League standards? Or use the same standards as Rice and Tulane? I am curious as to your beliefs on this matter.


Correct me if I am wrong. Neither of these kids would be taking your daughter's place. They would be taking the place of another athlete's football scholarship. Two different pools requires two different policies.
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby ponyte » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:31 pm

ponydawg wrote:
ponyte wrote:I have two daughters that applied to SMU over the last 4 years. One is in with flying colors. The other, with a 3.75 GPA and 1100+ SAT top 15% of her class in a top 100 high school didn't get in. Her biggest problem, as far as I can see, is she didn’t play football.

Why should two marginal academic kids be given more consideration to get into SMU than one of my very smart daughters? Why should two marginal academic kids take the place of academically qualified students like one of my daughters?

Where is the balance in this process? If these two get in, then I will scream as loud as many others to fire Turner as it isn't fair to many kids to do the work and perform in the classroom only to be bypassed because they can't play football.

Yes, the Dr. Tarr and Professor Fethers are running the asylum.


Correct me if I am wrong. Neither of these kids would be taking your daughter's place. They would be taking the place of another athlete's football scholarship. Two different pools requires two different policies.


Oh, I wasn't aware SMU had two different standards depending on students. One for those that academically qualify and one for those that can play a sport.

It was different in my day. I was admitted using the same standard as all other students and I graduated with the same requirements. I knew things had changed but I didn't know we had adopted the old Rice model.

Since we now have a different standard for athletes, I really don’t understand all the fuss. If we have dumbed down the requirements and two players still can’t get in, then the FBI would call that a clue.

Thanks for clarifying.
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby ponyboy » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:34 pm

Bottom line for me is if Stallion is saying that the playing field appears to be level enough then it's level enough.
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby Stallion » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:36 pm

actually though you were a walkon though weren't you so you did have to be admitted the old fashion way. Stanley Godine from Kashmere-I don't think so. I think he is pulling our leg because he said a few days ago he had teammates that couldn't read
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby ponydawg » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:41 pm

I dunno, he has me so confused I couldn't respond, luckily its a drinking day. mmm.....drinking.
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby ponydawg » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:42 pm

ponydawg wrote:I dunno, he has me so confused I couldn't respond, luckily its a drinking day. mmm.....drinking day.
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby Stallion » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:44 pm

ponyboy I'm saying its pretty damn close and I don't know specifically about these 2 because nobody seems to want to tell us their profile. I also would prefer all qualifiers get in but its not an unreasonable decision to deny admission to students who score 500-600 SAT points below SMU's average. I'm not going to burn Dallas Hall down. And June Jones will put a team on the field with just as many academically marginal athletes on the field as just about anyone we play. He will continue to recruit the margins as he has proven these last two years. Most all of these recruits will get in except for the non-qualifiers. The talk about secret funds, firing Presidents and overthrowing the Board of Trustees is repulsive at a school which has suffered the harshest blow to its reputation because of the exact same dumb-ass thought process. The Road to the Death Penalty started with the firing of SMU President Hardin in about 1972. Anyone comparing the present situation to Ken Pye's Death Penalty is truly crazy, hopelessly uninformed or too stupid to think for himself.
Last edited by Stallion on Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby ponydawg » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:48 pm

Still confused about Ben and Penn and the timing sucks.
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby ponyte » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:53 pm

Samurai Stang wrote:
ponyte wrote:Where is the balance in this process? If these two get in, then I will scream as loud as many others to fire Turner as it isn't fair to many kids to do the work and perform in the classroom only to be bypassed because they can't play football.


You seem to be advocating a model that holds athlete admissions to the same standard as the general student body. I believe that has been done, and it resulted in a football program that barely remained division one.

Do you propose that SMU impose Ivy League standards? Or use the same standards as Rice and Tulane? I am curious as to your beliefs on this matter.


As I have posted before, this is a balancing act. I know many very smart and qualified kids will not get in to SMU. When 9000+ apply for less than 1500 spots, good students will not be admitted.

I wasn't given special consideration. Probably because I didn't need it. But I had teammates that literally couldn't read and write. I had teammates that normally couldn't get into SMU but because of football, were able to get in. They have graduated and been very productive. I am most proud of these teammates because most came for situations where failure in all aspects of life was the norm. They took advantage of the road less taken and are better for it. But there were many that simply couldn’t keep up with their studies (when one can’t read or write or has the bare minimum in those most basic of skills, staying in SMU isn’t easy) and flunked out of SMU.

Do I want an Ivy League environment? No, because that would turn SMU from eye candy to nothing but the ugliest girls in the south.

But I do believe there is a minimum standard that all students, whether athlete or not must meet.

What that standard is I don’t know. Stallion has proposed diagnosis DSM IV Axis I learning disorders as one possible criterion. I think that should apply to all students, not just athletes. What other criteria can be used? I await others thoughts.

The University has made many decisions regarding it s priorities. There is no doubt SMU poured resources into the business school and school of arts. SMU has also committed to athletics. I think SMU should commit to athletics an appropriate amount of support, including admissions support. SMU has done this as SMU is now admitting players that a few years ago would not be considerations.

However, as Stallion has mentioned, we don’t know the details of the most recent two athletes but we do know they were not admitted based on the standards establish not for the general student population but for athletes. If they didn’t meet the most minimum of standards for a SMU athlete, then perhaps admission is a disservice to all, the kids, SMU and our football team.
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby ponyte » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:02 pm

Stallion wrote:actually though you were a walkon though weren't you so you did have to be admitted the old fashion way. Stanley Godine from Kashmere-I don't think so. I think he is pulling our leg because he said a few days ago he had teammates that couldn't read


There were two standards then if one uses the process loosely as two standards. One was the standard that all students were subject to. And the majority of athletes were subject to this standard as well. Then the university president had the privilege of admitting 20 students regardless of admission standards.

10 of the 20 could be athletes and 10 were non athlete admissions. And if 1 athlete was admitted, then 1 non athlete had to be admitted before another athlete was admitted. The ratio was 1:1. This allowed for guys to get admitted that couldn't read or write. It also allowed for alums’ less academically qualified kids to get in. And for talented dancers and so forth.

This was abolished after the imposition f the Death penalty.

So in a way there were” two” standards of sorts in place. However, unlike now, the standards were equal regardless of athletic status (10 for athletes, 10 for non athletes)
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby couch 'em » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:17 pm

So what are you saying? That somehow the admissions process is too far slanted towards athletes because 10 rich kids or dancers aren't admitted out of a undergrad population of over 5000?
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby NickSMU17 » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:33 pm

It is a very bad argument
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby ponyte » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:33 pm

couch 'em wrote:So what are you saying? That somehow the admissions process is too far slanted towards athletes because 10 rich kids or dancers aren't admitted out of a undergrad population of over 5000?


If academically qualified kids can't get in, nobody cares. We understand that there is only room for some many kids and some very fine students will not be admitted.

If two marginal academic athletes fail to meet even the minimum standard for athletic admissions, many feel the standard should be lowered even more. This I don’t understand. We already have standards that are lower for athletes. How low can the standards go before they are of no value? The standards aren’t in place to keep kids out. They are in place to try and get kids that can stay in.

SMU is first and foremost a well known academic institution. I have a Masters and Doctorate from other institutions. Yet when I tell folks I went to SMU that is when they make some comment that I must be smart. The school’s reputation amongst those outside our little club is vastly different. We take SMU for granted. Others see it as a place where only smart folks go. That is because most folks couldn't get in. The admission standards tend to attract the 'smart' kids in a school. Most of the others go to schools with far less challenging admission standards.

Given the reputation of the school and the fact that staying in requires certain academic skills, then lowering already lower standards has the very distinct possibility of decreasing marginal returns. Can the process be improved, most definitely. SMU should make decisions long before July. But lower standards even more? Hard call as we then run a much higher risk of losing kids after one season or so. That isn’t a wise investment in the kid, the school or the team.
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Re: Lunatics Running the Asylum

Postby NickSMU17 » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:41 pm

I think you are slanting this a bit...we understand your stance and I appreciate it, but disagree...

SMU is not super difficult to get in....

athletes do not take the spot of regular students....

Ivy league school participate in this on a different scale all the time...

Wealthy kids with big donations still can get in with low test scores...

We should dedicate ourselves to being excellent in revenue sports for 5 years and see how this effects the schools endowment and academic standing....I think after 5 years you would be suprised at the positive effects....If you don't believe me ask some TCU alums...
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