"A recruiting class and a half away"

[Dukie]

Right. Thanks for that spectacular advice. Guess your job in the athletics marketing department is secure for now, too.

Yes, SMU pays me to spend time rebutting those on the interwebs who want SMU to be even less supportive of its student athletes, and even provided me extra cover for this covert assignment by pretending to ax the marketing department a couple years ago.

Truly, I wasn't being sarcastic. You have stated your goals re the treatment of student athletes, and those goals are consistent with D III. Or maybe the Patriot League; go read Feinstein's The Last Amateurs. They have great values. But Duke is not in the Patriot League for a reason, and for SMU to succeed athletically it needs to bettersupport student athletes.

[PerunaPunch]

I call BS on this. Why should any athlete at a Division I institution of higher education need a "better environment" or "favorable atmosphere" to succeed on the field? They should be pulling their weight academically just like any other student, including at SMU. If they can't make the grades that the thousands of other students enrolled at SMU do every semester, then they don't belong at SMU. Period.

I'm all for recruiting and retaining talented athletes for our sports teams, but they are students, too, and not only do they need to prove themselves on the field, but in the classroom, so they can graduate and become alumni who eventually donate the big bucks to help SMU grow in all areas, not just athletics. And that's why we have the A-LEC - it's something that every student - EVERY student, at SMU can take advantage of - and it's a rare thing to find at a Div-I school. If anything, James should be supporting that department, and seeing what he can do to help them thrive, so our student-athletes can succeed in both the classroom and on the field.

Let me offer another perspective for your consideration...

My wife, TheLovelyMrsPunch, is a school psychologist and neuropsychologist and is widely considered to be among the best (if not THE best) in her field in this part of the country. She'd probably also have a fit if she knew I was posting this...

My wife works with a lot of parents and kids who are trying to optimize learning, want to know which school would be best for their kids to attend, kids who have learning difficulties and/or differences, etc. She has seen a goodly number of SMU kids over the years, including those who have gone to the ALEC and have gotten almost nothing useful out of it. When I asked her about this, she intimated that the ALEC probably had limited resources, limited staff, couldn't afford (or didn't want to afford) fully qualified staff, etc. because the quality of their work she had seen wasn't very good.

At the time I thought to myself, gee, isn't that just like SMU to build a glorious facade and not staff it adequately (Ford Stadium: Cavan, Bennett, the marketing staff.... Feel free to fill in your own examples)?

I'm just throwing this hypothesis out there because I really don't know, but it would't surprise me if this isn't another reason why SMU is challenged more than state schools. If a kid has a learning difficulty or difference and is attending a state school, there is probably state funding to hire the resources it takes to get that kid up to speed. At SMU, the funding to staff a facility like the ALEC with PhDs would have to come out of tuitions or donations. Plus the ALEC is available to all students. So the amount of staff time and resources available to student-athletes is watered down.

My wife has offered to do some volunteer work, so the next time I see Jeff, Adrian, Tom or one of the other coaches I know a little bit, I'm going to mention it. My wife could definitely help get accommodations for student-athletes that need them.

But anyway, the point of all this was: Just because we have the ALEC and a school of education doesn't necessarily mean we have all the support our student-athletes need. I too felt that some of our players were really letting down teammates and fans by not putting in the effort to remain eligible. Now, I'm convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that this issue is more complex than that.

[mr. pony]

Gotta go to class, though.

[SoCal_Pony]

Clustering is common at even the most rigorous academic institutions. I don't know if they are still on the internet but both Rice and Tulane have conducted studies in the early part of this decade concerning the continuance of Division 1A Football and both studies condemned the academic clustering of student athletes in certain majors at even Rice and Tulane.

ESPN did a story on this a few years ago, include Duke BB on that list

[SoCal_Pony]

That was a good post PP.

As I see it, once a kid is enrolled, most schools are done with the 'academic' side of the equation and can focus entirely on athletics. At SMU, the academic issues have just begun and will continue for the student's entire stay at school.

I am sure Mrydel, ArkPony or PonyTE can speak more directly about Arkansas, but I do recall stories from their BB players who stated they never attended classes.

Point is I doubt Top 25 programs dismiss players for academics the way SMU has, especially key players. We demand all of them to perform in the classroom. Without placing judgement on that statement, it undoubtedly places us at a athletic disadvantage.

[Oliver]

I call BS on this. Why should any athlete at a Division I institution of higher education need a "better environment" or "favorable atmosphere" to succeed on the field?

thats just the way it works, why do you think institutions committed to higher learning and stricter academic guidelines for athletes usually dont perform as well as the schools that cater to the needs of less school oriented players. I'm not all for the other extreme, but we need to work to find a balance, we can't always expect full time collegiate athletes to necessarily be held to the same standards, playing for a college football team is a full time job during the season.

[mustangxc]

Playing college football is no more rigorous than being on the running team ie cross-country and track, which between cc, indoor and outdoor track is year-round. However, I do agree that you cannot expect star football players in general to be able to manage the academic load. Should it be that way? No, but it is that way and we have to accept it if we want to be competitive on a consistent basis.

[mustangxc]

So I suppose if there is any good athlete out there that wants to be a coach or teacher or sports agent should not consider SMU. We only want athletes that want to be engineers, business executives or ballet dancers. All I am saying is that we need a greater diversity in curriculum in order to be able to attract all possible athletes who seek specific areas of education. Just because they do not want to major in whatever you did does not make them a lesser student or person.

They probably are lesser students, but no less important contributors to the overall success of the university. Let's be real, many if not most of these kids are not in college for the academics.

[b_caesar]

I'm glad to see this sort of spirited conversation about this important topic, and no matter what your perspective is, it needs to remain an important part of the discussion as we continue to improve on the field, too. I came across this post from Stallion on another thread, and think it's apropos to include here, too.

As the torches are lit and the mob gathers to demand that SMU lower admission levels to the level of Troy, Fresno, NTSU and Louisiana Tech just keep in mind that TCU was ranked No. 3 among all Top 25 teams in Academic Progress Ratings(APR). In fact, TCU easily had the second highest APR of all teams in Texas and Big 12 South (Rice was No. 1). You guys are about 2 decades late to the argument. We are arguing about 1-2 academically very marginal recruits a year that could be replaced by a simply marginal academic recruit who might actually graduate. Formerly, we were talking about limiting ourselves from recruiting 60% of the Top players in Texas. I am absolutely convinced that SMU can compete with the academic standards that have been in place since 2008 and also convinced that June Jones right now signs more academically marginal recruits than Patterson at TCU. I'd be more concerned with investigating how we keep our recruits eligible and improving facilities

(For context: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51223&start=75#p618484)

[Oliver]

you are right caesar, and stallion makes good point as well...the focus should be on creating more options for student athletes to major in than what their GPA needs to be...hopefully the New Education building is a good start to creating a more diverse educational program

[Dukie]

I'm glad to see this sort of spirited conversation about this important topic, and no matter what your perspective is, it needs to remain an important part of the discussion as we continue to improve on the field, too. I came across this post from Stallion on another thread, and think it's apropos to include here, too.

As the torches are lit and the mob gathers to demand that SMU lower admission levels to the level of Troy, Fresno, NTSU and Louisiana Tech just keep in mind that TCU was ranked No. 3 among all Top 25 teams in Academic Progress Ratings(APR). In fact, TCU easily had the second highest APR of all teams in Texas and Big 12 South (Rice was No. 1). You guys are about 2 decades late to the argument. We are arguing about 1-2 academically very marginal recruits a year that could be replaced by a simply marginal academic recruit who might actually graduate. Formerly, we were talking about limiting ourselves from recruiting 60% of the Top players in Texas. I am absolutely convinced that SMU can compete with the academic standards that have been in place since 2008 and also convinced that June Jones right now signs more academically marginal recruits than Patterson at TCU. I'd be more concerned with investigating how we keep our recruits eligible and improving facilities

(For context: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51223&start=75#p618484)

As it relates to your argument, Stallion's post is a complete non sequitur, unless you also show that TCU requires student athletes to "pull their weight academically just like any other student." Can you show that?

Duke football and basketball both earn tons of academic/graduation praise. And you better believe that Duke does not treat the basketball team as just another set of students who must fend for themselves.

[gostangs]

actually TCU is an example of what we need - they have tutors that support them (multiple tutors) that are exclusively for the football players and they are supporting that area to the tune of about 3X what we do. Touring their facilities is what got JJ hot under the collar with our lack of support in this area in the first place. An approach that does include holding their hands and walking them to class wont work. These "students" have never been students before for the most part - and they wont learn it on their own.

[EastStang]

Do only the swimmers, soccer players, tennis and golf players go to Learning Resource Center for our athletes? As I understand it that facility is staffed and ready to help any student athlete. Also, I know that more than once I was a study buddy with friends on the football team who needed some help. I have to assume that fraternity members are going to help football playing brothers as well. As I discovered at SMU, you have to consciously not work to fail. Profs are very tolerant to a point. Yes, you have to show up and participate, but they will work with a student who shows up and tries, even going to the point of suggesting a class member to study with them. Back in the wild days of the 1970's, we had plenty of academic risks at SMU and those that were truly stupid ended up in the dance department. (There were only about 2 or 3) that I recall. The rest either studied or flunked out. I would add that many of our inner city players admitted under special provisions graduated on time and some with honors. JJ has suspended stars who refused to work in class. He will continue to do so, I am sure.

[Harry0569]

you are right caesar, and stallion makes good point as well...the focus should be on creating more options for student athletes to major in than what their GPA needs to be...hopefully the New Education building is a good start to creating a more diverse educational program

I think the education school has a minimum 3.0 GPA to get in, which continue to push student athletes into dedman majors that are heavy in reading/writing, which is the fundamental thing that many of these student athletes struggle(d) with in the first place.

[Harry0569]

Do only the swimmers, soccer players, tennis and golf players go to Learning Resource Center for our athletes? As I understand it that facility is staffed and ready to help any student athlete. Also, I know that more than once I was a study buddy with friends on the football team who needed some help. I have to assume that fraternity members are going to help football playing brothers as well. As I discovered at SMU, you have to consciously not work to fail. Profs are very tolerant to a point. Yes, you have to show up and participate, but they will work with a student who shows up and tries, even going to the point of suggesting a class member to study with them. Back in the wild days of the 1970's, we had plenty of academic risks at SMU and those that were truly stupid ended up in the dance department. (There were only about 2 or 3) that I recall. The rest either studied or flunked out. I would add that many of our inner city players admitted under special provisions graduated on time and some with honors. JJ has suspended stars who refused to work in class. He will continue to do so, I am sure.

The Interfraternity Council proposed a plan to Orsini and Dean Webb/Lori White about having members of the Greek Community tutor/help struggling athletes. To be a tutor, you had to have over a 3.4 (I think) and be willing to spend 5+ hours/week tutoring. Orsini was all for it, but it was shot down by Webb/White.