Looks like Bennett's WR's were the best June had

[skurtn]

The only thing I think I'm seeing a fair amount of, isn't our ability to travel down the field (though, this year's 3 and outs has been an issue). It's our ability to get a TD while in the red zone. I believe that has been a problem for some time now, not just this year.

[gord]

Is the offense obsolete? Who knows. It is putting up similar yards as his non-Brennan years at Hawaii. Not sure about scoring. However, when compared against similar opponents, June's SMU teams, even excluding the first year from the numbers, with NFL receivers, with substantially lowered admissions requirements, has yet to perform as well as Rusty Burns' offense here, with no NFL anything. The major difference has been Mason's D far outperforming Bennett's. If June had Bennett's defense, we wouldn't be making any bowls. We have not gotten $2mil/yr out of him. We have gotten the $500k Bennett made plus he gets credit for bringing Mason in. And the incoming talent gets worse every year.

Actually, production is not anywhere near non-Brennan levels. The lowest passing average from 1999-04 was 322.9 (highest SMU 282) and the only times Hawai'i was below 30 ppg (something SMU hasn't done) was in his first two years: 1999 and 2000. His two worst years at Hawai'i are just about even with his two best here--everything else at UH far surpasses his SMU output. Yes Colt Brennan was good at UH, but Jones also coached the all-time leader in passing yards in Timmy Chang.

No disagreement that the talent levels are not increasing. That's hard to argue against.

[gord]

I can guarantee you that if SMU and West Virginia traded talent on offense, we wouldn't be in the hole we're in now and there'd be no complaints about how much the offense sucks.

I guess gordo is finally admitting that JJ and his staff has not recruited well in regards to the offense that SMU runs. But I can tell you that even Geno Smith might have problems with this offense.

Can you do me a favor? Can you show me the post where I said SMU had recruited well for this offense and we had more talent than we knew what to do with? I can't find it. Thanks.

[gord]

We've been told that the biggest strength of the RnS is that it neutralizes talent disparities. It's a scheme that is supposed to allow schools with lesser talent to compete--and win--against teams with superior talent.

It does help overcome some disparities, but you still need the right pieces in the right places. You still need a good QB to make this work, and it is obvious that GG is not the right guy (at least not right now). Some people might interpret the "it neutralizes talent disparities" angle and assume that you can put the QB from the intramural champs in there and it would work, but that never was the case.

[OR-See-Nee]

We've been told that the biggest strength of the RnS is that it neutralizes talent disparities. It's a scheme that is supposed to allow schools with lesser talent to compete--and win--against teams with superior talent.

...and I have some swamp...er...prime land in Florida I'd like to sell you.

Ha, ha. That's the thing. What's being said and the reality don't jive. I'm not buying from JJ because I don't trust him. PK on the other hand....

[OR-See-Nee]

We've been told that the biggest strength of the RnS is that it neutralizes talent disparities. It's a scheme that is supposed to allow schools with lesser talent to compete--and win--against teams with superior talent.

It does help overcome some disparities, but you still need the right pieces in the right places. You still need a good QB to make this work, and it is obvious that GG is not the right guy (at least not right now). Some people might interpret the "it neutralizes talent disparities" angle and assume that you can put the QB from the intramural champs in there and it would work, but that never was the case.

I agree with you 100%. And when you look at when the RnS was developed and implemented, it probably did help neutralize talent disparities. Like someone said, in the 80s, everyone was running the ball and the RnS was new and different and defensive coordinators didn't know what to do with it. Remember, they would have 7-8 guys in the backfield, putting no pressure on the QB. But now, everyone is running a variant of the RnS--call it spread, whatever, but teams are using more 3,4, 5 wide out formations than 20 years ago, so the massive advantage the RnS might have produced 20 years ago--based on the system only--no longer exists.

[gord]

So essentially the run n shoot should be left to nfl teams, it seems to complicated for players and besides Alabama no team can consistently find gems to keep this offense productive on a year by year basis. Lets just say its not outdated well then it's over complicated for the average college student. The QB guru has yet to find someone who can run the system like its suppose to with all its different reads and option WR routes. Lets face it, there's way too many positions and moving parts for a cupcake losing team like us to handle. If anything we need an offense that can adapt to whatever we are blessed with and compete with that. I feel in college football, with no draft, adaptability is the name of the game. If JJ offense need star studs then maybe he should try it out at the whorens as an OC. I'm sure Mack will try anything now

You insist on coming up with off-the-wall reasons as to why it's not working here -- reasons that are easily dismissed with facts, like the fact that it was a top-5 offense in the nation several years at Hawai'i, whose average (even below average) didn't find it all that complicated. I'll let you keep coming up with stuff, just as long as you start with a drop-off in talent and Jones has yet to recruit/develop a QB as good as Chang or Brennan (or even Moniz).

[PK]

So essentially the run n shoot should be left to nfl teams, it seems to complicated for players and besides Alabama no team can consistently find gems to keep this offense productive on a year by year basis. Lets just say its not outdated well then it's over complicated for the average college student. The QB guru has yet to find someone who can run the system like its suppose to with all its different reads and option WR routes. Lets face it, there's way too many positions and moving parts for a cupcake losing team like us to handle. If anything we need an offense that can adapt to whatever we are blessed with and compete with that. I feel in college football, with no draft, adaptability is the name of the game. If JJ offense need star studs then maybe he should try it out at the whorens as an OC. I'm sure Mack will try anything now

You insist on coming up with off-the-wall reasons as to why it's not working here -- reasons that are easily dismissed with facts, like the fact that it was a top-5 offense in the nation several years at Hawai'i, whose average (even below average) didn't find it all that complicated. I'll let you keep coming up with stuff, just as long as you start with a drop-off in talent and Jones has yet to recruit/develop a QB as good as Chang or Brennan (or even Moniz).

June seems to be the one implying that it is complicated and that it takes several years for a QB to master it. Personally I would like to see them run predetermined routes so the QB knows where his reciever is supposed to be. Secondly, if your WRs can't get seperation on the long flys down the side line, have them break off across the middle where the QB can lead them on a pass even if the DB is on the WR's butt.

[gord]

It does help overcome some disparities, but you still need the right pieces in the right places. You still need a good QB to make this work, and it is obvious that GG is not the right guy (at least not right now). Some people might interpret the "it neutralizes talent disparities" angle and assume that you can put the QB from the intramural champs in there and it would work, but that never was the case.

I agree with you 100%. And when you look at when the RnS was developed and implemented, it probably did help neutralize talent disparities. Like someone said, in the 80s, everyone was running the ball and the RnS was new and different and defensive coordinators didn't know what to do with it. Remember, they would have 7-8 guys in the backfield, putting no pressure on the QB. But now, everyone is running a variant of the RnS--call it spread, whatever, but teams are using more 3,4, 5 wide out formations than 20 years ago, so the massive advantage the RnS might have produced 20 years ago--based on the system only--no longer exists.

I'll agree with you (gasp!) that the R&S doesn't have an advantage anymore, but I don't believe it has to do with defensive coordinators catching up (this offense was uber-successful at Hawai'i just 5 years ago and relatively successful in 09 and 10 here). The outbreak of schools running variants of the spread means that Jones can't find a ton of WRs that are either overlooked or recruited to be DBs. The talent pool at WR is thinning since just about everybody seems to be putting at least four on the field at once. Jones just has to do a better job of recruiting the WRs that are going to Tulsa, Texas Tech or even Texas. It wouldn't take too much to convince me that he got complacent with his built-in advantage that he enjoyed for years and let other schools outrecruit him.

[gord]

June seems to be the one implying that it is complicated and that it takes several years for a QB to master it. Personally I would like to see them run predetermined routes so the QB knows where his reciever is supposed to be. Secondly, if your WRs can't get seperation on the long flys down the side line, have them break off across the middle where the QB can lead them on a pass even if the DB is on the WR's butt.

All passing offenses are complicated to a certain degree and one that requires QBs and WRs to make adjustments on the fly takes a lot of practice that pays off immensely once they have gotten it down. It is a common misconception that every single play in this offense has the WRs given 3-4 options to choose from -- that simply isn't the case. There are some packages that do have option routes in them, but there are a lot that don't.

Secondly, if your WRs can't get seperation on the long flys down the side line, have them break off across the middle where the QB can lead them on a pass even if the DB is on the WR's butt.

Here you are advocating for the same thing that you are arguing is keeping SMU from being successful.

[PK]

Secondly, if your WRs can't get seperation on the long flys down the side line, have them break off across the middle where the QB can lead them on a pass even if the DB is on the WR's butt.

Here you are advocating for the same thing that you are arguing is keeping SMU from being successful.

No, not really. It is an obvious fact that our WRs rarely are able to get separation on the fly routes down the sideline...period. So stop running them as such and have predetermined plays that start out like a fly route, but have one WR break off across the midle early and the WR on the opposite side of the field break off across the middle farther down field or maybe keep going down the sideline just to open up the middle for the other WR.

[Arkpony]

Sounds good to me, accepting the fact that GG can hit one of them!

[PK]

Sounds good to me, accepting the fact that GG can hit one of them!

He has a better chance hitting them on a crossing route than on a fly route down the side line from what I have seen so far.

[Arkpony]

I think you are right

[couch 'em]

Is the offense obsolete? Who knows. It is putting up similar yards as his non-Brennan years at Hawaii. Not sure about scoring. However, when compared against similar opponents, June's SMU teams, even excluding the first year from the numbers, with NFL receivers, with substantially lowered admissions requirements, has yet to perform as well as Rusty Burns' offense here, with no NFL anything. The major difference has been Mason's D far outperforming Bennett's. If June had Bennett's defense, we wouldn't be making any bowls. We have not gotten $2mil/yr out of him. We have gotten the $500k Bennett made plus he gets credit for bringing Mason in. And the incoming talent gets worse every year.

Actually, production is not anywhere near non-Brennan levels. The lowest passing average from 1999-04 was 322.9 (highest SMU 282) and the only times Hawai'i was below 30 ppg (something SMU hasn't done) was in his first two years: 1999 and 2000. His two worst years at Hawai'i are just about even with his two best here--everything else at UH far surpasses his SMU output. Yes Colt Brennan was good at UH, but Jones also coached the all-time leader in passing yards in Timmy Chang.

No disagreement that the talent levels are not increasing. That's hard to argue against.

It is more complicated than that - the passing numbers are misleading. If I have time this evening I will elaborate